Any of you fuckers have a better idea for how alcoholics can get help?
I don’t need to be able to perform a triple lutz to tell you the guy falling on his ass is doing it wrong.
Do you know who else said, “At least we’re doing something”?
Germany, in the 30’s.
Boom! Godwin headshot!
But only for 20 minutes.
Don’t you mean Carl Jung? “Spirituality” as a “cure” for alcoholism is demonstrably a pantload as I am sure you are aware; not that AA ever “cures” anyone as they also make the preposterous claim that alcoholism is an “incurable disease” – despite the also obvious fact that most people who quit and/or temper their consumption, do so outside their Holy Program. Of course, 12 steppers would tell you that those weren’t alcoholics to begin with. :rolleyes:
BTW, did you bother to read the OP in your search for AA zombies?
Mind like a steel trap, always closed. Plenty more examples in the originating thread and this one.
YMMV
But it won’t.
No. It’s ego, id and superego. It was all the rage in the 30s.
Did you bother to click on the provided link? Because I insist, Jung’s premise that “spirituality” was the answer to man’s “evil needs” (such as craving alcohol) is the bedrock of AA’s “philosophy.” However if you want to add Freud’s outmoded quackery into the mix…well, thanks for extending my point. Which, if you haven’t noticed by now, is simply that AA is a steaming pile.
Bill W.'s Correspondence with Carl Jung
– bolding mine. Barfing optional.
Is this a bad time to mention thateven heavy drinkers outlive people who don’t drink at all?
I’m not going to look up specifics but I suspect this is an exaggeration and is not convincing. Especially the part where brain receptors never heal completely. Brain receptors don’t heal. They turn over. Even neurons can be replenished and the brain can be remodeled even in adulthood. Furthermore, the amount of neuronal cell death is low even during binge drinking. I think that study came out in Science a year or two ago.
Of course, healing won’t happen with just an intellectual understanding of reward systems but professionals shouldn’t be teaching bullshit either. Habits are not conscious efforts (obviously) but they can be changed with reconditioning through repeated anti-addiction strategies. This is the positive part of AA. It actually does require “thinking” and repeated "thinking"and acting until the habit is broken. So, yes, you have to “think” yourself out of alcoholism. There’s no other way. But the first “thinking” step is the realization that the behavior has more drawbacks than rewards. The vast majority of our activities and thought processes are ‘subconscious’. We usually become aware of something much later than our response. Even quite a bit of problem solving is only semiconscious because we have gone over the motions so many times before. It’s only during a eureka moment or going into completely new territory when we are really conscious. People like to think we are rational beings but the more we learn about the brain, the more we realize how rare we are actually thinking and acting rationally.
What I like about programs like SMART recovery is that it really does take away all the supernatural and victimization bits and allows a person to take control (with help from others) of their situation through targeted practice techniques. You practice “thinking rationally” until it becomes subconscious. I actually stumbled on it and used it to help me manage anger and anxiety caused by a high stress job. I didn’t abuse substances but some of my behaviors had hallmark features of natural but unproductive ‘self-medicating’. I also found zen buddhist meditation to be helpful but I disregard all the supernatural stuff. It changed my perspective so much that I no longer need to practice regularly (although I’ll go back to them when things get especially rough).
Maybe AA could step it up and start balancing the four humors of their members. Bonus points if you stock leeches next to the coffee.
To the degree that AA helps anyone, I don’t think it is the “spirituality.” It’s just group support–that’s all. The founders might have used those terms in the beginning, but that’s not what keeps people sober today. They don’t crave alcohol because they’re “evil”; it’s because they’re head’s screwed up. The people I know who have benefited from AA don’t talk about spirituality at all. I guess they just brush that off, but if it rubs you the wrong way so much, you can try something like SMART, which doesn’t have any of the spirituality talk. Whatever it takes.
That’s true, and I’m sure that change of thinking is a necessary part, but a serious alcoholic will drink despite this–it’s not sufficient. They rationally know what damage it causes, and still they drink. For some people, the sense of group solidarity is what keeps them from acting on the impulses, not rational thought.
And have them sign The Hippocrytical Oath. Perfect.
Well then, I don’t know what the fuck they are doing in AA in the first place. Because there’s simply no way to avoid the spiritual angle if they’re in it. Unless of course, they’re into pretzel logic and mental gymnastics. Or nuts. Or both.
What rubs me the wrong way is woo in any of its myriad of manifestations. Likely the main reason I joined a place dedicated to “Fighting Ignorance” in the first place.
Go figure.
Yeah, but you can’t touch *this *woo, because then you’re an ignorant asshole. Because *this *woo is important to important people, so that makes it exempt from our normal standards of skepticism and logic.
Looks like we have different definitions of words and I can’t seem to make my points. Your definitions of disease and thinking are different from mine. I’m talking about an epiphany where you gain real insight and are motivated to act because now you ‘intuitively’ perceive alcoholism as a threat to your survival or survival of progeny. All of that is ‘thinking’ to me. This is a big factor in AA (I’m so and so and I’m an alcoholic).
It has been shown pretty clearly in this thread that logic is no part of the people that have a hard-on for AA.
Because seeking logic is the least logical thing you can possibly think of?
Not following you. Can you be more specific?