Jesus fucking Christ, what is with these anti-science assholes? Look, douche-bag, if 5% of alcoholics quit on their own every year without assistance, then the fact that 5% of AA attendees quit isn’t evidence that the program works. What the fuck is wrong with people that they can’t understand this simple fact? Hell, if you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to read some of the posted links, there have been studies that showed that AA attendees did worse then people who went it on their own. Actual scientific evidence that AA is harmful! But thanks so much for your valuable anecdotal evidence anyway, moron.
Don’t keep that all bottled up inside, it curdles your chi.
AA? Chi? Do you believe in feng shui, too? 
No, but I’m adept at Cringing Mantis Kung Fu.
My homeopathic anger management ointment doesn’t seem to be working. Which is weird 'cause lots of people recommended it.
Funnily enough, anger management doesn’t work, either.
And I’m surprised. Your horoscope said you’d be calm and balanced today.
I wouldn’t want to be there when the participants figure that out.
You wouldn’t like them when they’re angry.
Evil Economist are you claiming that AA has helped some people quit drinking because those people don’t believe in science? That maybe if they had only seen the statistics, the program wouldn’t have worked for them?
An organized support group can’t be likened to a placebo.
Whatever it takes is what it takes concerning something like beating an addiction - inheritance/genetic, environmental, emotional and psychological factors are involved that are often beyond the bounds of science.
Everyone’s different. And what might work for one person might not work for another, and visa versa. AA has helped a lot of people quit booze, take it or leave it.
Okay, see if you can follow this:
You have a lucky rabbit’s foot.
With it you can predict coin flips fully 50% of the time.
But it turns out that without it you still can predict coin flips 50% of the time.
Is the rabbit’s foot doing anything?
Think about this hard. It’s important to understand this before you start debating stuff.
Lobohan, if you’d kindly quote my entire post instead of just the few lines you’ve selected, you might not see the absurdity of your analogy and that it in no way applies here.
But perhaps others reading this thread might have the chance to.
Or is this simply your sleazy and dishonest style of “debating stuff”?
Help! Is there a cure for uncontrollable :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: that worked for somebody out there?
“Your science can’t measure my woo” is an all-time classic dragged out to explain why any given bullshit* can’t stand up to scientific scrutiny.
*not a reference to AA, about which I have no opinion.
I’m not sleazy and dishonest. You’re saying that AA helps people, take it or leave it.
I’m saying, if the evidence show it’s no better than chance it doesn’t. I clipped your quote because your ignorant prattle wasn’t necessary except for the moronic little snippit I showed above.
It boils down to facts and data. That some people squeal and love their AA, I’m sure is true. But if it’s no better than chance not only is it worthless, it’s utterly and irrevocably wrong. Isn’t one of the tenets of AA that the alcoholic is powerless? They for a fact are not if as many people quit the demon-rum without any help than with.
That just makes them your run-of-the-mill bullshit worthless social group.
Look, I’m not saying you’re a vapid stooge, I’m just saying you’re sounding like a proponent of homeopathic medicine here.
All your questions can be answered at the following link: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html. Warning, answers involve science, not cute anecdotal stories. Note that this link has been posted to this thread already.
Beyond the bounds of science, huh? Listen, science is a secret code word. It means critical thinking. Something that is beyond the bounds of science is bullshit sold by stupid people.
I’ll leave it, thanks.
Pick whichever “science” you want.
Counter Arguments to the Viciously Biased Anti-AA site, The Orange Papers
Wow, I thought I’d lurked long enough to know all the hot button topics on this board, but AA? That’s a new one on me.
Out of interest, the lone cashew, do you believe alternative medicine works? Acupuncture? Homeopathy?
I know a few people, personally and professionally, that quit drinking without using AA. Would they have called themselves alcoholics? I don’t know. But they felt they should stop drinking for whatever reason so I think it’s a fair comparison. I don’t know how AA class ‘successes’, if the poser up-thread sent to AA for having weed had also stopped drinking (or just didn’t drink) is that a tick in the box for AA?
Anyway, are my anecdotes less valid that yours?
I’m not arguing for either side, I have personal doubts about AA but I’ve not researched it so I’m not willing to pick a side here. But saying it worked for Jim, Bob and Jill is not a good argument for anything.
And, given the mission of this board, anyone using it is an argument for anything should rightfully be called on it. Although not necessarily with as much colourful language as Evil Economist is using.
Question for anyone that knows (I know I could Google it, but I’m supposed to be working) – is AA state funded in the US?
SD
I certainly don’t believe in Homeopathy. Acupuncture - don’t know much about. But those things are not akin to what we are talking about here. If only beating an addiction like booze were as simple as taking a prescribed pill…
A person deciding to see a Psychologist is more analogous to an organized support group. Some people benefit from seeing some kind of shrink while others do not.
People can choose to not drink. Some people have more difficulty making the behavioral choice not to - due to many often overlapping factors - inheritance/genetic, environmental, emotional makeup, etc. An organized support group can help certain individuals choose on their own to quit drinking and stay away from it. Beating an addiction like booze is an individual thing, some people cannot seem to beat it no matter what course they take, others are able to quit without an organized program.
To state percentages (that may or may not be correct percentages) to discredit a program like AA fails to acknowledge whether an individual might benefit from such a program. It’s not as simple as flipping a coin, it just depends on the makeup and many factors concerning the individual.
A person attempting to quit booze should consider at least giving AA a try. Then after attending at least several times, if they don’t feel that it’s their style - if they don’t feel it might help them choose to abstain from booze, try something else.
From that site:
Ow.
You link is not evidence for AA, it is evidence for recognizing alcoholism and actively seeking support. The OP in the other thread mentioned being uncomfortable with AA. You don’t think it’s irresponsible to push AA on someone who doesn’t feel comfortable about it? What would you predict the success rate would be for people who don’t fit into AA’s sometimes strict mold? I’d like to see a study on that. IOW, I think you’re the one being irresponsible here, not Clockwork.
As far as I know, studies have shown that individual therapy (typically cognitive behavioral therapy) combined with general support groups shows significantly more improvement (I can find cites this evening if you wish).
I take strong issue with AA because of it’s completely unscientific treatment of addiction as a ‘disease’. That’s utter nonsense. Addictive behaviors are simply normal reactions to overwhelming stressors. Remove, deal with or learn to accept the stress, relieves the need for self-medicating.