Thrice I ask, and done.
Are you fucking kidding me? Read his post. It’s right there in black and white. I’ll even repost it for you in a nice big font:
Are you fucking kidding me? That in no way answers my question. It is a simply yes/no question. You would think that it would not be a big deal to get an answer to that.
If you could read, it really wouldn’t be.
To put this another way: The quote that you reposted in huge douchy font does not answer my question.
It would seem that the naysayers in this thread lack the couage to answer a yes/no question. Pity that, but not really suprprising I guess. The more that I look at this them more I am forced to conclude that the idea that AA does not work is as much a matter of blind faith as the idea that it does.
Anyway, if someone wants to give a yes/no answer I will be listening. Otherwise I am going to go ahead and assume that you are reaching conclusions that you want to reach and credit you with the respect that deserves.
binarydrome, please answer the following question, limiting your answer to a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’:
Are you too stupid to understand that your question, no matter the answer, doesn’t change that AA doesn’t do any good, according to studies?
He answered you again, just before your “thrice and done” crap.
Give me a break. I read Shodan’s post quite closely and am asking for him to simply clarify his stance here (which I notice he has yet to do). Do you want to take a crack here? Yes or no: Do you claim that all of the people that are currently sober and currently in AA would be sober had they never joined AA?.
Yes or no. That is all I want to hear out of you. Anything else increasingly looks like weasel words and diversionary tactics.
What I understand is that the posts in this very thread citing other studies that indeed point to AA and other 12 step programs working are being ignored. I also understand that Shodan had not answered my question, he simply claimed that it can’t be answered and did some more hand waving.
All of which is fine. Some people have decided that AA doesn’t work “just because”. Whatever.
Hmm. Completely missed that meme.
Yes or no.
(which I notice he has yet to do
The studies say there is no reason to think there’s a link between AA and success. The fact that it’s POSSIBLE that AA is required for some people is simply hand waving until that question is studied on it’s own. I could just as easily say it’s POSSIBLE that those who succeed on their own would have been harmed by joining AA. Do you buy that possibility?
Does AA cure alcoholism by filling your skull with oatmeal?
Once a zookeeper said to his monkeys: “You’ll get 3 bananas in the Morning and 4 in the afternoon.” All monkeys are upset. “OK. How about 4 bananas in Morning and 3 in the afternoon?” Hearing this, the monkeys are content. One should realize that sometimes a change in phrasing does not represent a real change.
Hate to break it to you but that isn’t just a change in phrasing. But whatever, you think everyone’s ignoring your question and that’s not true either.
Five people going to AA get sober.
Studies show AA doesnt work. People are just as likely to get dry without AA.
So,
Would those five people have gotten sober if they hadn’t gone to AA?
Arguing with these people is a waste of time, Binarydrone. Their claim seems to be that if anyone feels that AA has helped them stay sober, they are mistaken. They claim that AA has not helped anyone stay sober, AA has brainwashed them. Absurd.
So Shodan seems to be saying “yes”, the people who are sober in AA would be sober without it. And anyone who AA has helped - friends, family, themselves - are only anecdotal story tellers. And the analogies continue to fly that don’t apply. And they continue to site a study that is biased and flawed as “the science”.
Again, it’s a waste of time arguing, these people have their heads up their asses and only seem to want to argue just to be inflammatory. Like posting the idiot font, (that’ll really get a point across.)
Shodan, I’ve figured it out. AA *does *help some people get sober. But those people get so sanctimonious they drive other people at the meetings to drink again.
I think this thread may be the most maddeningly annoying thread I have ever posted to. I’m not kidding. The chuckles are drying up for me.
But I’m a four bananas in the mornin’ kinda monkey, myself. So what do I know.
BinaryDrone, I will answer your question with a simple YES. I think CarnalK said it best:
Let’s consider the people who credit their sobriety to AA. What must a person do in order for AA to make them sober? They must genuinely and completely desire to be sober, and be willing to put in the work to become and stay sober.
I assert, without equivocation, that 100% of such people will become sober no matter what they do. It just so happens that most of them join AA, because that’s the norm in our society.
This is a fun argument because I get to weasel as much as AA does. If anyone fails to become sober, obviously their desire and commitment to sobriety* wasn’t wholly and completely genuine.
*This would be “AA” if I were an AA apologist. Neat how well it works for either side of the debate.