Um…I think we must be talking about different kinds of immunity. Their immunity to Iraqi law was still in effect in October. Are you talking about the UCMJ?
Most of those orders are collected under CENTCOM General Order #1. Which I am sure is somewhere on the web but I can’t find it.
Blackwater must have had a license even under your definition, but the Iraqi government revoked it.
Yes. Your incorrect answer involved the UCMJ. It was asked if soldiers are immune to Iraqi law. You stated that:
And I told you that you were wrong. Civilian contractors are now subject to the UCMJ just like military personel. The loophole that was in the law since it was ruled on during Viet Nam has been closed.
In post #17 you say " literally given a license to do anything they want without consequences)."
In post #24, it’s now “mercenaries) were quite literally given license”
The Iraqi’s revoking Blackwater’s “license” was meaningless, they hadn’t issued one to revoke. Not in an official document sense.
Blackwater employees do not carried laminated I.D.'s that say (words to the effect)
“The bearer of this card, whose likeness appears hereon is hereby authorized and entitled by the U.S. Government to take any actions deemed necessary or desireable, without repercussion or responsibility to any court, tribunal or government whatsoever.”
That would be literally “a license to do anything.”
The unusual situation of civilian contractors having and using lethal force in an occupied country, but being murkily subject to neither the UCMJ, US or Iraqi courts has merely ‘given license’ for some to take advantage of the situation to use unreasonable force with little fear of repercussion.
That’s My point.
I didn’t read the story, but was this Quran shooting done in the presence of Iraqis, or was it done on a US military shooting range?
I’m guessing it was a twisted joke by a soldier and nothing more. If it was done on a US military shooting range and someone caught wind of it and reported it and that’s how the Iraqis found out about it, then shame on them for running their mouths.
When I was in the military, we had “pop up” shooting ranges at Fort Knox that were plastic semblances of communist soldiers (right down to the red star on their headgear) to shoot at as a means of qualifying for our rifle badges.
If we had a modern rifle range with these types of targets “dressed up” as Arabs, there would be an outcry, no?
Where was the “oh the humanity” outcry then?
These are armies engaged in war, and soldiers often do stupid things. We have become the most culturally sensitive military ever, and I for one believe that it does us more harm than good, because as far as taking the “moral high ground” is concerned, it isn’t working.
I think, FoisGrasIsEvil, that there’s a world of difference between a silhouette target and a book.
For that matter, I think the difference is that “Arab dress” is a cultural signifier, and we’re not ever likely to be shooting at all people in Arab dress in the same way we were likelier to be shooting at all people in USSR combat uniform (which is a group signifier in a significantly different way). If you had pop up targets that were, say, Republican Guard uniform silhouettes, that’d be far more acceptable.
Goes with the territory of the enemy here not having a uniform.
We’re not at war with Islam.
It was done on an Iraqi police shooting range.
While it is probably legal to shoot the hell out of a bible in America, I think it is extremely likely that a soldier who did so would be disciplined. Same goes for shooting an American flag.
In Iraq, US soldiers who have defaced Iraqi flags have been disciplined, and so have soldiers who have defaced the Qur’an.
I hear that in England there are blasphemy laws. I wasn’t able to find them on the Internet, but I’ll bet you a coke that a US soldier shooting up a bible in England would be disciplined for it.
Hell, a few years ago US soldiers serving in Saudi Arabia, when they left the American posts, had to wear a head-to-toe black abaya. The women, that is.
Not for much longer!
On May 8 2008, the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 was passed, which abolishes the common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel in England and Wales, with effect from 8 July 2008. - Link
Of course it is a violation of law to shoot at a Quran. You can get a Saudi haircut for that. Surprised you even asked.
Oh! You mean for an American soldier? Sure, I think it is Article 89, Conduct Prejudicial to Good ORder and Discipline. Everything from kissing a mule to kicking a jeep.
Moving to own opinion; they need to shoot the fool.
I’m a little confused that they called it “nothing more than criminal behavior.” Was somebody claiming that it was an ennobling gesture, destined to free the peoples of the Middle East from the tyranny of the False Teachings of the Demon Mahomet (or something)?
“Nothing less than criminal behavior” I could understand, especially if someone was claiming that it was an act of minor significance (which strikes me as more likely to have been the soldier’s defensive position).
Well, we have one here on the SDMB; remember “don’t be a jerk”?
You’ll note that in RickJay’s post, he is deliberately vague in calling it a rule; he makes no assertion as to chapter and verse, or even wording. If one wishes to insist upon precision of language, it might be more effective to call it a guide, to be applied when deciding which actual rules are to be invoked in responding to a military member’s behavior.
Or, more economically, a “general rule,” perhaps.
Years ago, i saw my late uncle’s US Army handbook (on muslims), which he received as part of the WWII 8th Army. The book went into great detail, about the muslim culture and customs of Nort Africa. It told you exactly how to behave,and told you thr likely results of doing the wrong things. Why can’t the US Army do the same for iraq?. I remember that the book told US soldiers about the king of Morocco-"don’t make jokes about, or insulting remarks of any kind…
I guess the Army prepared its soldiers better back then!
They crank out millions of Qurans every year. Printing presses are very busy making them. They are like the bible, just a book. This is way overblown. We have blown up Mosques . We have used their spires for target practice.
If someone used a bible for target practice would it be that big a deal? I say apologize for the affront and move on.
Well, it is not an issue of how aggrieved we feel, or would feel in an analogous situation. It is a matter of how the Muslims feel. In their eyes, justice would require much more than an apology. Since we want to win their hearts and minds, I think we ought to give them what they want.
But then again, we are moving rapidly away from a GQ to a GD or even a BP.
Supposedly, we are guests in their country. Would you go the home of Jewish family and burn a Torah in their living room? Why not? It’s just a book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SDfG0WQyqg&feature=related This is an affront. Not shooting a book.
People destroying copies of the Bible might not go down so well in some “Christian” countries either.
I doubt it. I have no doubt the same books are printed today, and people are briefed on local cultures. My grandfather fought through North Africa too, and was in Yemen post war. He still tells me of times when local service people would put out their hands for a tip and squaddies would delight in dropping a piece of bacon rind in rather than giving money.
The preparation has been there. I am sure it was ignored by some in the 1940’s as it is ignored by some now.