Shooting handguns questions

Factual Questions
1

I’m looking for background information on shooting performance and other stuff relating to handguns. I’d like to know what kind of groupings with a 9mm semi-auto would be considered good at various ranges, with and without time limits.

I know the possible combinations of guns, ammo and shooting conditions are virtually endless, so I apologise if this is a dumb question. Right now, I don’t even know enough to know what I should be asking!

Some specific stuff, to make it a bit less vague:

  1. In target shooting, with no time limits, what would be respectable groupings at say 5 yrds, 25 yrds or other ranges?

  2. What would be good groupings firing 2 or 3 shots as fast as you can? What sort of times could be expected? How are these times measured?

  3. What rate of fire can you get if you just pull the trigger as fast as possible? Can any kind of grouping be achieved at all doing this?

  4. What difference does it make to speed and accuracy using p+ or +p+ shells? What about other calibres altogether?

  5. When you fire a semi-auto empty, what happens on further pulls of the trigger?

2
  1. I am happy with 2-4" groups at 5 yards, but I am more into practical shooting then target shooting. ‘Slow Fire’ pistol competions are not for the weak of heart, hand, or eye!

25 yards is the realm of competitors and hunters. With a typical modern semi-automatic pistol, I am happy to hit the target, much less group. With my friends Thompson (pistol, not tommygun ;)), 1" groups are easily achievable.

  1. Again, speaking from a practical shooting perspective, 3-5" at 15’ is roughly what I can get with my Sig 226, doing double taps. The group opens if I am in a 3-gun or IPSC type shoot.

  2. Incredibly fast. My two main pistols, Sig 226 and Colt 1991 can put rounds out as fast as I pull the trigger, no problem. That is insanely fast, not particularily good for the frame of the pistol, and more fun then a human should have :wink:

My 686 (revolver) and Makarov are slower (longer trigger resets), but still too fast to do any but rudimentary aiming when shooting. Also, fun.

  1. In my 226 I carry 147gr subsonic HP’s (Black Hills). +P is the highest pressure rating sanction by SAAMI for a handgun. (SAAMI is sort of an internation ammunition standards body). +P+ is a unrecognized, and has no tangible benifits, while increasing frame wear and muzzle flip considerably*

Shooting ‘Hot’ ammo, as any ‘faster then usual’ ammo is sometimes referred to, generally slows you down, since you have to do more work to get back on target.
5) Depends.

Single Action only (My Colt 1991): Nothing.Trigger doesn’t move once the hammer falls on an empty chamber.

Double/Single or Double only: The hammer** will continue to operate each time you pull the trigger. The trigger pull will be ‘longer’ on a Double/Single, since you are, in effect, in Double-only mode then.

Feel free to drill further for more answers. I have seen plenty of shooters around at this board, all more then willing to help.

  • Can of worms. Sanchow vs. Fackler. An unending debate of epic proportions. One school of thought is that smaller, lighter, faster bullets are better. The other school of thought is that the heaviest bullet is best.
    **Not all semi-autos technically have a ‘hammer’, but Glock owners are used to being snubbed by now :wink:
3

I have seen Jerry Miculek shoot an egg at 100 yards with a scoped(obviously) snubed nose revolver. I have also seen him consistently shoot coins and even aspirin thown in the air. Jerry has been on tv many times. Jerry is probably the best shooter in the world today, and he uses a revovler in high speed shooting competitions against guys using semiautomatics, and Jerry wins.

As far as speed shooting, the time counts only if you hit the target.

Quality guns can be amazingly accurate, even with a snub nose. Misses are almost entirely the fault of the shooter.

As far as what size groupings you should try to achieve, first, put your gun in a vise to see what the gun itself can do. No gun will shoot better in your hand, than in a vise. Then, try achieving that same grouping with the gun in your hands.

Jerry uses S&W revolvers because the return spring on the S&W is the fastest. He says you cant shoot faster than what the gun is made for.

With single action revolvers, when Jerry does high speed shooting, you cannot hear the different shots going off, it all sounds like one shot.

As far as using +P or solid lead or hollow points, it is argued endlessly, so we recommend that for self defense purposes, you mix the type of bullets in your carry gun some for penetration, and some for fast expansion.

This article is from the Smith and Wesson website, and was shown on the tv show The American Shooter on TNN:

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:9gMBY59MIhQC:www.smith-wesson.com/misc/records.html+american+shooter+revolver&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

"Jerry Miculek Sets World Records With Smith & Wesson Model 627 Performance Center V-Comp Revolver. Shooting history was made July 24th in West Point, Mississippi when Jerry Miculek set three world records with Smith & Wesson Revolvers. Miculek, known as the world’s fasted revolver shooter, used a Smith & Wesson Performance Center Model 627 V-Comp revolver to establish a world shooting record of eight shots on one target in 1.00 seconds.

"The clock started on the first shot and stopped on the last and the time was one second, said Ken Jorgensen, Smith & Wesson shooting sports coordinator and director of public & media relations. “This had been a goal of Jerry’s for several years and although it took several attempts he accomplished what he set out to do.”

The Smith & Wesson Performance Center Model 627 V-Comp revolver, chambered for eight rounds of .357 Magnum¨, gives the shooter a choice of ported or conventional barrel in one American made handgun by allowing them to replace the three port comp with an unported muzzle guard. Miculek used the revolver with the unported muzzle guard for the record setting shooting.

Jerry also used the V-Comp revolver to put two shots each on four targets for a total of eight shots. Despite the need to move the revolver from target to target, the elapsed time from the first to last shot was a mere 1.06 seconds. The third record established at the Mossy Oak Outlet Center range, in front of several hundred spectators, saw Miculek fire six shots, reload, and fire six more shots on a single target in 2.99 seconds. A Smith & Wesson Model 625, chambered for .45 ACP and using full moon clips was utilized for the 12 shot record.

Timing equipment for the event was provided by PACT. An official of the NRA Competitions Division witnessed all record attempts.

The American Shooter program on TNN broadcast the complete story of Jerry Miculek’s record setting event, including the making of the Smith & Wesson Performance Center Model 627, on September 11, 1999. "

4

On a semi-automatic pistol, the action locks open on the last round, so you can’t really pull the trigger. The action (or slide) locks open so you can switch out the clip for a loaded clip, unlock the action, which then slides forward, chambers a round, and then you’re ready to go.

8 shots on target in one second? wow!

I don’t remember the web address, but maybe it was a thread, about how bullets kill people. Unless it was a head shot, or spinal column shot, the person bleeds to death. The article then went on to say that since media portrays people falling down when they get shot, that when a person gets shot in real life, they tend to fall down. And, that a larger bullet sends more of a signal to the person that they have been shot, so if you want someone to stop what it is they are doing, shoot them with a big bullet.

5

Matt, the questions aren’t dumb but they lack context in the real world. I’m trying to do some reading between the lines but I’m not sure what you really want to know as opposed to what you asked. Perhaps if we knew why you were asking we might be able to direct you to some more relavent questions.

Most forms of competetive shooting with a speed component aren’t shot against traditional bulleseye targets where tight grouping is critical. Targets are either reactive steel with misses counted as a time penalty or cardboard representations of a torson and head with broad zones for scoring.

RobertTB, do you have those Chip McCormick shooting star magazines that don’t reliably hold the slide open on your 1991? :smiley:

FWIW some types of submachineguns are specifically designed not to hold the bolt open after the last round. The H&K MP5 is this way, I’m told, so your adversary won’t know your gun is empty. After the last shot the bolt will cycle normally and the next trigger pull will make the hammer fall on an empty chamber. All open bolt SMGs do this as a normal consequence of their design.

6

An afterthought, I might do some testing this weekend and tell you how I do in relation to your questions. Mind you I’m not a national class shooter but I do okay. I’ve got my own shot timer so I can throw some numbers your way. The timers used in action shooting have a buzzer to start the shooter then they record the time of each shot to 1/100 second with a built in microphone. I won’t be shooting 9mm but a .45 ACP Witness carrycomp. It has a compensating port attached to the barrel that directs some of the released gas upward. This keeps the muzzle down and allowd the shooter to get back on target quicker.

7

"Perhaps if we knew why you were asking we might be able to direct you to some more relavent questions."

I’m after a writing resource, basically. I’m trying to get a feel for what kind of shooting feats are reasonable, which are unlikely and what is impossible. And I’d like to get other details right, such as what happens when you pull a trigger on an empty semi-auto (already answered, many thanks!) what noise does a suppressed pistol (with subsonic ammo) actually make, how quickly can you clear a jam, how quickly can you change a clip, that kind of stuff. Could you tell the difference between an empty gun and a loaded gun by the weight? If your gun was loaded with blanks, couldn’t you tell from the recoil, first shot? (Yes, that is a Die Hard 2 nitpick.) Would you have any chance at all of shooting out a tyre of a moving vehicle in the real world?

By all means, answer the questions you think I should be asking! And if anyone out there has something really unusual like a Gyrojet or a gas sealing revolver, I’d like to know just about anything you can tell me about it.

Padeye, detail like your compensating port is just the kind of thing I’d like to know about! How come it doesn’t flash in your line of sight?

8

I was going to suggest taking a gun safety course and learning how to shoot but I see from where you live that is virtually impossible. Sorry that’s the case as you’re missing out on a lot of fun.

Compensators do put muzzle flash in the line of sight but it’s a non-issue in daytime use. Ammunition used in semi-auto pistols tends to be faster burning propellant which makes for little external flash and there are some propellents made specifically for low flash. I haven’t had an opportunity to fire this pistol in darkness but

Projectile mass is one of the biggest factors in felt recoil so it should be easy to tell a blank from a live round. A shooter might be fooled with a semi-auto though because of the mass of the slide or bold slamming back and forth. FWIW the H&K subguns used in Die Hard require a barrel adapter to operate with blanks. They used internal “hollywood” adapters but this could cause a blown up gun when live ammunition was fired because of the partially blocked barrel.

Shooters in some sports gain an advantage by using low velocity ammunition with low mass bullets to reduce recoil. In Cowoy Action Shooting there is no rule against this and it can cause problems. A gamer shooting “mouse fart” ammunition may not be able to tell the difference between the recoil of a normal round and a squib load that has no powder. The primer may lodge the bullet in the barrel and the next round can cause the gun to explode like a grenade. The range safety officer standing within arms length of the shooter may have to order the shooter to stop or physically restrain them from firing another round if this happens.

Gyroget? Wow, few people have even heard of those. The propellant charge was contained in the base of the bullet so it was more like a little rocket launcher or bazooka than a traditional gun. They were regulated by the national firearms act in 1934 as destructive devices I believe. I’ve never seen one and only read a magazine article about them.

Sound suppressors can be remarkably effective. Kind of abstract to describe in text but the sound may be as quiet as depicted in movied but the sound itself is very different, sharper. In .22 caliber the sound can be extremely quiet, less than the mechanical sounds of the gun.

9

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by matt *

Generally, it’s either going to be either ‘tap, rack, bang’ or ‘break out some tools’. Basic jams like the fired brass failing to eject or stovepiping* can be cleared by tapping the gun and racking the slide, anything that doesn’t get cleared by a try or two at racking the slide probably requires tools and/or partial disassembly to fix.

*the brass gets caught in the ejection port on the slide, usually sticking straight up

Revolvers jam much, much less fequently than semi-autos (there’s no case being ejected, which is where most semi-auto jams happen), but when they do it’s usually hard to fix, like the cylinder getting stuck.

Generally you’re talking about a ‘magazine’, not a ‘clip’ - if it looks like a metal box, it’s a magazine. Switching magazines on a modern pistol is fast, anywhere from maybe a second to six seconds. The complete time for a switch depends on several things. You’ve got to remove the mag from storage - a mag buried in a bag or pocket, or stored in a holder with a strap would take some time to get free. You’ve got to drop the mag from the gun, on some pistols you hit a release and the it will fall out, on others you have to hit a release and pull it out. If you don’t want to leave the empty magazine on the ground you’ve also got to recover and store it.

The only ‘clips’ in use on handguns are for revolvers, they look like a full-circle or half-circle with holes for the cartridges and they stay in the revolver while firing. Speedloaders are also used on revolvers, they hold a full load of bullets and look like a plastic cap with a screw on the top.

It depends on how heavy the ammunition is compared to the gun. For a rifle or shotgun, probably not. For handguns, you’d need to be familiar with the gun - not just ‘know how it works’, but ‘have fired it for a while and am used to it’. It’s also easier for pistols than for revolvers because there’s a bigger weight difference. The hero would certainly be able to tell the difference on his regular gun.

Also, I presume you mean ‘empty’ and ‘fully loaded’ - telling whether a gun has one round in the chamber or not by weight wouldn’t work (unless someone worked on it as a trick).

IIRC (I’ve never used any blanks) it’s possible to mess around with hotter loads in blanks, which might make them seem real, but you’d risk something screwing up. You could probably tell that the shot felt different, but you wouldn’t neccesarily know on the first shot - it might just be a weak round in the batch or just a quirk from adrenaline flowing.

You’d have a chance but it would be a hard target (moving, small, and covered by car bits). Regular police have successfully shot out tires before, but it’s not something you’d do casually.

10

Forgot to mention this earlier - if you travel much, you may be able to try some pistol shooting on the continent. I’ve heard that some Brits do that on trips to France, though I have no idea what the procedures would be. It would be worthwhile look into it and give it a try if it’s not too expensive or difficult for you.

11

For grins and giggles I ran that drill today when practicing. Timing was done with a Competition Electronics Pocket Pro shot timer. It signals the shooter with an beep then uses a microphone to record the sound of each shot to 1/100 sec. Pistol was an EAA Witness carrycomp in .45 ACP. I shot a few three shot strings and managed to get a 3" group at ten yards in 1.68 seconds. I can shoot faster but accuracy falls off badly. That’s not in league with the ultra fast guys but I do okay.

12

Still damn respectable, wouldn’t see me taking any “friendly wagers” against you at an IPSC match.

Hell I was happy to get two “A” zone hits on a target with my stock Beretta 92FS running in those matches.

13

When discussing suppressors, it is good to remember that an effective device is much larger than the ones seen in movies and on television. There are some sophisticated suppressors for centerfire (as opposed to .22 rimfire) calibers that are about the size of a toilet paper tube, but the majority of suppressors are on the order of 1.5" - 3" in diameter and at least 10" long. Suppressors for .22 rimfire can be much smaller - a good example would be a Ruger Mk1 or Mk2 bull barrel pistol with a suppressor that has the same outside diameter as the barrel and only an inch or two longer than the standard barrel. When sub-sonic ammuintion (desirable because it eliminates the “sonic boom” of the projectile) is used in a suppressed .22LR pistol that has a bolt buffer installed, the noise generated by a gunshot is less than a hand clap, but the gun becomes a close-quarter weapon that requires considerable skill to use.
One point to remember in the interests of accuracy: standard revolvers do not have “safety catches.” Some exotic revolvers and modified revolvers may have a safety, but the standard factory models do not have a safety. Many newer model revolvers now come with a lock-out system, but these require a key of some kind and should not be equated with the kind of safety found on most semi-auto pistols. Oh, and btw - most people refer to a semi-auto handgun as a pistol; a revolver is called a revolver.
If you are writing about handguns and want to portray a fast-shooting handgun, there are several models that you could use. The Beretta Model 93 is a full-auto handgun built on the same platform as the Beretta Model 92 (U.S. military sidearm - 9mm). It has a selector switch that allows single shots or full auto and has a small handgrip that folds down from under the barrel that helps maintain control in full auto fire. There is also a pistol called the JATI that does the same thing, but with a smaller caliber, IIRC - the .32ACP, maybe. And then there are MAC 10/11 and Micro UZI handguns that are essentially “bullet hose” type weapons that are used for the “spray and pray” kind of shooting. I have seen some excellent examples of these guns that use various suppressors, but the run of the mill samples of these guns are sometimes called “jam-a-matics.” For the ultimate writer’s exotic handgun, I might consider the H&K MP5KS/SP89S, which used to be called the “silent, deadly necklace charm.”
As far as accuracy goes, a good gunsmith can make just about any handgun (even the ones i spoke of in derogatory terms above) shoot “good groups.” The primary consideration is to determine just how much accuracy you realistically need. If your character is going to attempt shots at 25 yards (a quarter of a football field) and beyond, a finely tuned, tightly fitted, adequately sighted handgun would be required. On the other hand, if the person is going to be using a handgun for short, fast work or as a last ditch backup weapon, nearly any good quality standard, off-the-shelf gun will suffice after a break-in period and ammo check have been done.
Whew! Sorry to have rambled on about this topic… Hope some of this info helps in your research. As Padeye mentioned earlier, it would be helpful if you could shoot a few different styles of handguns so you see how the things work and what can be accomplished by them.
P.S. I just recently saw an article in one of the gun magazines about the Nagant revolver. It was a revolver that used special ammuntion coupled with a sliding cylinder that formed a gas seal when the round was fired. Pretty innovative, but the idea never took off. I am pretty sure you could find information about this gun (and the others I have mentioned) on the internet somewhere. Good luck on your literary ventures.