“Hi, Spice Weasel! Good morning, Spice Weasel’s breasts! Hi there, Spice Weasel’s…”
Do you at least acknowledge that for many women it IS indistinguishable from catcalling?
Why? Because, only about one in ten is really an innocent hello. Most are just opening lines. And any response from a pretty woman will likely lead to the guy turning it up. Now he’s approaching you, now he wants to know your name, and look he’s getting on your crowded subway car, what a coincidence.:dubious:
And what? Women should assume the best about every guy on the street, smile and make nice until they actually cross that line into creeper? That is beyond ridiculous in my opinion.
I should assume they’re all just innocent remarks, even though a couple of decades experience has taught me otherwise? Ridiculous.
I can accept that what was once a polite nicety has been hijacked by street creepers. What I can’t accept is the naïveté that any woman should be able to distinguish the extremely rare innocent remark from the overwhelming number of creeper come ons.
Street creepers start with innocent sounding remarks for a reason. How is this news to men? How is it not self evident?
You’re welcome to stick to your old ways, no harm, but you shouldn’t be surprised that women in public see these ALL as aggressive attempts to get their attention. To force them to be acknowledging.
People, broadcasting that desire, in broad daylight, on a public street, all get grouped in together for most.
When I read this, I can’t help but think of the expression used by Dave Chappelle and others, “Chivalry is dead and women killed it”.
Here’s an interesting article: “Why I Talk To Men Who Catcall Me.”
Many women can, though. I don’t think it’s naiveté, I think it’s what comes from years and years of experience interacting with strangers, some of whom are just being friendly and some of whom want to bone you.
I think catcalling/street harassment is fucking creepy. But do you not see how freakin’ weird it is to expect women, or young women, to be excluded from friendly greetings? As I see it, men who harass women are telling them in no uncertain terms that they are ‘‘other’’ or that they have value only in pleasing men. To me, someone not saying hello to me just because of my gender would be running that in the opposite direction for an equally alienating effect. Either way, I am being treated differently based solely on my gender.
Just treat people like human beings. That’s all I’m asking.
I’d rather see men calling out other men for being creepy pervs than ignoring women altogether.
[QUOTE=Bruce Wayne]
“Chivalry is dead and women killed it”
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps we can rise like ubermenschen from the ashes of chivalry and build something even better.
For the record, I love this.
Have an attractive woman walk a few blocks, followed a minute later by an attractive man. Count the number of interactions each of them have with the people on the street, and film them as well.
Assume that most if not all the people on the sidewalk who interacted with both the woman and the man were not doing it for sexual purposes.
Which of the people on the sidewalk only interacted with the woman, and which only interacted with the man? This would give an estimate of how many times the woman was hit on, and how many times the man was hit on.
My guess is that the woman would be hit on a lot more than the man. Now in my books, interacting on the street with eye contact, a nod, a smile, a “good-morning”, etc. is simply being polite. Hitting on people is harassment. If the woman is harassed significantly more than the man, then it begins to illustrate the scope of the problem.
What is this? Nuanced and thoughtful discussion? Even in the comment section? How are we supposed to discuss anything if everyone doesn’t immediately jump to idiotic extremes?
Honestly, how many times do you greet random strangers you pass by on the streets? I can’t think of the last time I did so. I don’t think I’ve ever done it.
I think thinking of even a “hello” as at least an expression of sexual attraction is completely justified, especially for women.
I think expectations in this regard are totally geographical. I have lived in places where everyone says hello to every stranger they see, and initiates small talk. I have lived in places where strangers don’t talk to each other at all, and I have lived in places where it’s hit and miss.
In smaller town I’ve briefly lived in, this was not unusual. Big cities? Not so much. I certainly don’t say hi to random strangers here in Chicago. But it’s certainly regional or context-dependent (for example, on a hiking trail, pretty normal to say to everyone.)
That’s a thought-provoking article. Thanks.
I love the accompanying illustration.
The article has provoked further thought, and this is my conclusion. I’m not convinced this is a problem that is going to be solved by disengagement. Disengagement is in fact part of the mechanism of what makes street harassment degrading. Many women have trained themselves to be silent, to avoid escalation, to avoid drawing even more attention to themselves than they are already unwillingly getting. I have that training myself, it’s in my bones, it’s habit. It’s not effective.
So in response to this I’m liking DudesGreetingDudes, I’m liking YouOKSis, and I’m liking the idea that we have a collective responsibility to shut this shit down when we see it. I like the idea that people can be friendly to each other but if they cross the line, someone is going to let them know about it. I like that idea that if someone tries to take agency from you with a degrading comment, you can take the agency back by refusing to stay in the box they want to shove you. I want to live an a world where the best-case scenario isn’t silence. That last fucking thing we need in our society right now is to further separate ourselves from our fellow humans.
How are any of those tweets greetings? I guess “Mornin’ #DudesGreetingDudes” doesn’t have the same effect.
There were many examples later on in the article.
Etc.
Those are what I was referring to. If you consider those greetings, then we have an entirely different idea of what a greeting is.
I actually think calling them ‘‘greetings’’ is part of the takedown.
The response is intended for the men who argue that men should be able to greet women because they’re just being friendly, yo.
The whole Twitter movement is intended to throw that disingenuous bullshit back in their faces by making it clear that these aren’t just innocuous greetings, because no dude would talk that way to another dude.
Those examples aren’t “just innocuous greetings”, because they aren’t greetings at all.
So is it “it’s not okay to say hi”, or “it’s not okay to say hi, if hi is a euphemism for obnoxious cat-calling and harassment”?
Well, let’s not jump to extremes. ;)
Of course it’s going to mean different things to different people.
I see it as a wry comment on the hypocrisy of claiming that obvious come-on lines are merely “friendly” greetings, whilst also inviting people to maybe think a little more about fostering genuinely friendly communications; treating people as people and not as targets.
Perhaps you see it as counterproductive, and perhaps it will turn out to be so, but I hope it can do a little to get people thinking about improving their attitudes and behavior regarding gender relations and interactions.
For your viewing pleasure.