Should a six pack a day drinking habit cost a person his drivers license?

I have never intended to suggest otherwise. I have meant to suggest, declare, and plainly state that in professions where confidentiality is par for the course that when they are not, that lack of confidentiality should be made clear.

Quite so. Lawyers, AFAIK, are also forbidden from defending someone they know is guilty. As you might imagine, this probably stops people from telling their lawyers they are guilty. So what would happen if we made sure people know that doctors can breach confidentiality in certain circumstances? You offered up a very plausible scenario: people would lie to their doctors. Which, of course, prevents doctors from reporting people who are a danger, and they woud stay on the road anyway. So your only solution must be that you either punish people for lying to their doctors, or you lie to them about what doctors can break confidentiality for. This, of course, isn’t going to facilitate trust or honesty, either. So I guess I wonder what you really hope to gain from this other than a bunch of liars driving cars when you feel they shouldn’t be.

There is no “objectively” safe, as we seem to agree in the airplane thread.

This is a strange standard, because if we all follow the advice I give (don’t drive if you don’t feel safe because of this) then the average danger increases dramatically as unsafe drivers become the majority. In which case there’s no reason to remove driving privileges from these people. Let’s find another tactic.

Why is license suspension as punishment? It’s a public health decision, made for the patient’s own safety as well as others around him/her.

If you tell a doctor about flu-like symptoms and get diagnosed for SARS, and ordered into quarantine for a week, is that also a “punishment”? Should the doctor be required to say: “Before you tell me your symptoms, I should tell you that if you turn out to have SARS I will need to report you to the CDC and recommend they quarantine you. If you don’t want that, you can walk out the door and take your chances.”?

Traffic citations are also for the public good. Feel like you’re helping your fellow man when you forgot to put a dime in the meter? I know I didn’t get a sense of local pride swelling in me when I parked within 20 feet of an intersection.

Laws per se are for the public good. What has that got to do with an individual perceiving something as a punishment? Very often we punish people because of a sense of the public’s good. It is quite a common justification for punishment.

When I said earlier that maybe the doc should read me my rights before I answered any questions, I was being facetious. But not by much.

I think that if someone has a health problem, he should be able to try to get it corrected, if possible.

Many health problems are embarrassing or seen as signs of weakness, or even incriminating. Because of this, the patient needs to know that it is safe to go to the doctor, that the doctor is working 100% for that patient, and not for anyone else.

Once the word gets out that a doctor is a part-time snitch, patients will do what they feel they need to do. They will lie or just not go. This is human nature.

In the long run I think the streets will not be safer because of these reporting requirements. Quite the opposite.

While we’re at it, why just stop with unsafe drivers? That farm worker with the broken leg? Better hit the speed dial for La Migra. Someone with a drug problem? That’s a crime! Alert the DEA. That married guy who wants to get treated for the clap? What’s his home phone, anyway. The wife needs to know. The smoker? Call his insurance company!

I could go on all day. I want the doctors to do their doctoring. And the police can do their own damn policing.

Oh, sigh. Go into your doctor’s office and ask for another copy of the little booklet, the one that they are required to give you when you first come to their office. The one that should say something like “Privacy Guide” on the front, that you apparently tucked into your pocket and never looked at.

I can say with a good degree of certainty that you never looked at it, because if you had, you would know that it states quite clearly when/how/to whom confidentiality can be broken. People are provided with that information all the time and it doesn’t seem to bring about a huge increase in them lying to their doctors. Nor do we see hundreds of people ranting to the media about getting screwed by the system.

Or (since we’ve already included lawyers and priests), if you’d rather not make the extra trip, I can post a copy of a generic consent form that most therapists use. Despite the fact that we are quite clear about what will lead us to break confidentiality (and the consequences if we do), it doesn’t appear to stop people from threatening to kill themselves, kill other people, admit to abusing others, etc., etc., etc. Hell, I made a living sending people off to institutions on information they provided after I told them what the consequences may be.

I have read it, yes.

I think you overestimate the usefullness of those forms. To me, it would be nicer if someone took time to explain each one, and a person would sign off on each one. Generally, I don’t give anyone any information I wouldn’t mind being public in the first place. But I also take time to read those forms, and I have refused to participate in some things because of it, and I have withheld information or outright lied because of it. Clearly, this defeats the purpose of obtaining the information in the first place. If you feel that, generally, the information is good, and generally, most people are honest, then, generally, I guess I don’t have a leg to stand on. But I didn’t expect my personal behavior WRT otherwise privileged people would be called into question in a debate.

I am glad you had the integrity to tell them personally rather than hand them off some form and have it speak for you. Of course, I wonder about the logic behind getting consent from people you are about to ship off for temporary incompetence, but perhaps that is a different thread.

That situation - punishment for lying to a doctor - is precisely what is faced by any commercial driver going for their physical, and what every pilot faces during their physical. There is a line on the form that you are required to sign that states that misrepresenting any information, or neglecting to give required information, can result in severe penalties. I know a couple doctors who give these physicals and they have told me of occassions where people do lie, foolishly, as the doctor subsequently determines that no, the person is not safe for driving/flying, and the system is far harsher on those individuals than those who state up front they may have a problem. Because the issue is not to punish people with problems, or even to deprieve them of privileges. These doctors are actually quite willing to work with a patient to either determine they are not a threat to others, or to work to mitigate the presenting problems so they can safely return to driving/flying.

You seem fixated that deprieving someone of a license for medical reasons is somehow punishment. It’s not.

It may be that if the gentleman in the OP cuts back on the booze and takes his other medication (if any) he may be fit to drive again in a short while - I don’t know. Neither do you. Seems more productive than sitting on his backside whining, though.

You’re assuming the doctor won’t discover the problem on his own.

Not 100% certainty, no, that’s not possible - but I’ll settle for 90% It’s all about managing risks and playing the odds. I am not in the habit of making bad bets with my life.

Even without looking at your location field, I can tell right away that you don’t live in Spokane.

So there we have it. Must give up information that can be shared, and must not lie about it.

All that’s left now is for you to say this is the way things should be, and I can rest contented. I thought I might be reaching when I suggested you’d want this earlier, but we’re almost home…

So long as they can report them to the authorities, or…? Because, you see, that was my problem. Giving up privileged information in an effort to stop people from doing things like driving. I don’t recall mentioning I was against intervention in other ways that retain confidentiality. In fact, I think I even mentioned that it might foster more trust if patients knew they wouldn’t be punished for honesty.

Why, it is almost like you want to agree with me.

I think we can argue semantics all day and night over this one. And believe me, there is almost nothing I like more than a nice discussion about what a single word means in any particular context. I pride myself on such discussions, probably to the irritation of some. But I think you’ll note my thrust has not been the punishment angle, rather the “outing” angle. I suggest it is a punishment because of various reasons you may or may not find interesting, but surely we can agree to disagree on that point without critically damaging other discussion?

Which you know for sure is the case.

Actually, it would be a shame for it to come to that, wouldn’t it, when we could just protect privacy in the first place? Or is it that the medical profession has no means of doing anything without calling the cops and breaking trust?

One thing remains unclear to me: does this situation parallel the OP such that their flying license would be removed due to a reporting of this information to the proper authorities? Would they still be able to drive, and do you think that is a proper judgment?

I did mention that denial of driving privileges could be awkward and require adjustments - such as moving to a place where there is a decent alternative to driving. In my mind, that’s an incentive to behave oneself.

So tell me - what do those unable to drive do in Spokane? Sit home and rot?

I’m not sure where the first sentence in your reply is going.

And, again, if someone honestly says “I have problem X” and their license is suspended/revoked on account of that it’s not punishment for honesty. It’s a safety matter.

Who was “outed” here? The doctor didn’t go to the reporters, the DMV didn’t go to the reporters - this man “violated” his own privacy by publicizing this matter, no one else did. Indeed, the authorities involved have steadfastly refused to comment on the matter, being legally compelled to keep this matter confidential even if the patient/driver in question feels free to talk about it himself.

Your privacy IS protected already.

The extent and limits of the privacy are outlined in those little “HIPAA booklets” that health care providers are compelled to provide to all patients. If people care so little about their privacy and rights that they fail to read them that is NOT the doctors’ fault.

Nor are some of these reporting requirements a matter of choice on the doctors’ part - it is required by law and if a doctor does not obey that law he/she could face serious consequences.

Heart disease would certainly be a red flag - at a minimum, further investigation and testing would need to be done to determine what exactly is going on. Most likely, a pilot’s medical authorization would be revoked, but appeals could be made and actually there are quite a few pilots out there who have had a heart attack, cardiac bypass surgery, and so forth and been allowed to return to flying once it is established their condition is stable and not a threat to others. They can’t get authorization to return to flying 747’s full of passengers, they certainly could return to some level of flying. Again, provided that they are determined to be medically fit to do so.

An alcohol consumption rate of a six pack a day would also be a red flag - they might require random drug tests for a period of time, or attendance at some sort of substance abuse program even if there is no legal evidence - i.e. DUI’s - of a problem. Certainly, if you have a DUI in your background they’re going to look very hard at your alcohol consumption patterns. Yeah, conceivably they might pull your flying privileges for that, particularly if there are other health problems or signs the drinking is causing damage.

Pilot’s are required to give the FAA access to their driving records - how you behave on the road can, and in some cases has, affect whether or not you get to fly legally. I have seen pilots wail about this - usually those who are crappy drivers. Well, if you can’t handle a car in two dimensions I’m not sure we should trust you to handle a much faster vehicle in three dimensions.

You can certainly loose your flying privileges without losing your driving privileges. It is also theoretically possible to loose your driving privileges *without * losing the flying - but I can’t recall an actual such occurance. It would probably be a situation where a pilot is, say, in a wheelchair and moves from one state to another - he would retain his Federal permission to fly, but might run into a snag at getting re-licensed to drive in his new state, depending on what rules and regulations apply. Or a pilot with a vision defect (he’s one-eyed, perhaps) that was determined not to be a problem flying but, again, may run afoul of local driving laws that would prevent him from driving until he, say, installed extra mirrors on his car.

Anyhow - if a pilot is denied medical authorization he/she can appeal. In some cases this might even involve a “medical checkride” or issuance of a Statement of Demonstrated Ability (meaning you are capable of doing the job safely even if you don’t perfectly meet some standards) but that typically involves medical reasons that aren’t affected by behavior. So you might see that for someone missing a limb, but not for drinking. If your drinking is causing a problem then stop. If you can’t stop, then you have a serious problem. If you love drinking more than flying - or driving - then… well, I guess you’ve made a choice.

What it comes down to in my mind is that if you don’t have a drinking problem you can give up the booze. Sure, you might miss it - but a responsible person who wants to keep driving, or needs to drive to get to a paritcular job they don’t want to give up, will make the choice to drop the beer. If you do have the sort of drinking problem where you can’t give it up, you may not be safe to be on the road.

Is the whole system of FAA medical authorization to fly OK? Hmm… in broad concept, yes - the standard is twofold: 1) can you control the machines and 2) are you a hazard to others (note that you are permitted to risk your own neck in the air - it’s bystanders the FAA is worried about). If you dispute the FAA’s determination you are given the opportunity to actually demonstrate you can meet those two standards.

The devil is in the details, of course - there’s plenty to dispute about the picky details.

In sum, I’d say the FAA is a bit too strict in some areas, and the DMV is too lenient. I’d like both systems to meet somewhere in the middle. Be a little more stringent with the auto drivers, certainly.

You can drink a 6-pk a day OR drive.

If you persist in doing both don’t complain about the consequences!

Such as… having his drivers liscense suspended? :smiley:

Is this a new law? If it is I haven’t heard about it, perhaps it should be made clear. Now, not only can you not drink and drive, you also can’t drink at all if you want to retain the privilege of driving. Thank you puritannical America for one more limitation on my ability to enjoy myself.

Not a slippery slope my butt. Where did they get the magical 6 number? Shouldn’t it be ANY alcohol to be safe? You can drink OR drive; hello prohibition.

Remember, just because YOU think something is bad doesn’t mean that no one should do that thing. That would be called intolerance. And balancing safety vs. freedom is always tricky; my opinion is to err on the side of freedom, regardless whether you consider that freedom important or not.

Regarding the doctor reporting the habit… I do believe the state law is in the wrong in this case, rather than the doctor. If the doctor didn’t do as the law stated and report this, he leaves himself open to litigation. Actually, I wouldn’t mind the law so much if it wasn’t the arbitrary and unilateral way they act on the information they are provided.

Well, some are lucky enough to live within walking distance of one of the main streets. (Most businesses are along Division St, which runs north-south for 10 miles, or Sprague Ave, which runs east-west for 15 miles.) Some are lucky enough to live near a bus route, and have a flexible enough work schedule that they can afford a 2 hour bus ride each way, making it home before the routes stop running at 6:00. Others panhandle, sell drugs, etc.

Well, we can, but if we do, there’s no debate. :smiley: The speculation as to the doctors true reasons above and beyond the amount he drinks for reporting him may be well founded, but nevertheless has to assume facts not given. If the true danger is that his heart condition could be exacerbated by his drinking and he’s in immediate danger of cardiac arrest, his drinking habit is merely secondary and the article’s focus is misplaced. However, the tone of the article (rightly or wrongly) suggests that the doctors merely reported him because the volume and frequency of his drinking leads to an elevated chance that he will drive while intoxicated. Assume for the sake of argument that that’s the case.

My father hasn’t had a drink in years, but for many years was a heavy drinker and would stop and get a twelve pack on his way home from work. Although he was a heavy drinker, he was a long distance runner and was otherwise in good physical shape. As he was well cognizant of the legal and physical dangers of drinking and driving, once he got home he didn’t go back out again. In practice this made him less dangerous than somebody who went out to a bar every third weekend and drank a moderate amount before driving home. Which one should be reported? Does the mere fact that one drinks heavily, without more, require that one’s license should be taken away? What if one admits to occasionally driving after drinking a moderate amount?