Should abortion be legal?

I was a little disappointed that this thread explicitly disallowed debate on the issue of whether abortion should be legal.

So, this thread is for any and all discussion on that big issue. Oh, and I guess whether abortion is moral too, which is of course not the same thing.

So, my 2c is that abortion should be legal, and the only (very tough) question is where the cutoff should be.

There is little difference between a fertilized zygote and a stem cell. And I doubt anyone would care if I decided to destroy some of my bone marrow.
And note that the argument that “Well, I believe in a soul” isn’t relevant here. I can’t stop an abattoir worker killing cows because I believe they’re sacred; rights cannot be taken away from another person based solely on religious beliefs.

As for pure legal arguments about a woman’s rights over her own body…I’ve never really understood these. Surely they just depend on the main argument of whether (and when) an embryo has full personhood status?

It is fantastic how our self-proclaimed intelligent species treats other living beings with lesser brain function. As far as the abortion debate, I doubt you’re going to find any new, original, or refreshing arguments, this topic having been exhausted.

Well, it’s not like we have a shortage of such threads.

How are those not the same thing? If something is moral, it should be legal, and if it’s immoral, it should be illegal. That doesn’t mean that laws always are that way, but if the question is what the law should be, then where’s the difference?

Personally, I would like to see the line drawn somewhere between the first appearance of neural tissue and the first appearance of brain waves. There’s no consistent argument for the embryo having rights before the appearance of neural tissue, but after that point, I think that it’s uncertain as to whether the fetus is a person, and in cases of such ambiguity, I think that there’s a moral obligation to err on the side of preserving life.

Yes. Where it is illegal, women (including mothers) die or suffer lifelong health consequences. It does not go away.

From the Guttmacher Institute:

You’d think that would be point final, especially when it comes to funding abortion in developing countries (cough, Canada, cough). But apparently not.

What if it’s immoral to force your morality on others?

I know I’m setting myself up for a smackdown here, but I didn’t see any recent ones, at least not in GD.

Well, should cheating in a monogamous relationship be illegal?
Should trying to make someone feel bad about themselves be illegal?

Are you serious?

Thats what I’m sitting here thinking. He can’t be.

What if Jesus had been aborted?

And that’s my report on why abortion should be legalized.

Mary would have been pregnant again in three days.

I laughed.

Interestingly enough, this is one of the few topics that I’ve found I have a hard time reconciling with my beliefs. It seems simple, in that it’s essentially the mother’s right over her body vs. the right to life of the unborn child and, thus, whichever right has greater precedence wins out. I’d also add that I put the right to life above all other rights, but that’s exactly what makes it hazy.

How do you define when the child is alive? If you go to one extreme, where life is defined at conception, then you’re forcing a strict belief on everyone, which is wrong. OTOH, if you go to the other extreme, up until the moment right before the child is actually born, then I think a majority of people see that as wrong. How do you draw any sort of meaningful line between the two. Do you go by first heartbeat, or first brain wave, or when the child is viable outside the womb? Do you go by a relatively arbitrary date?

Also, as someone mentioned upthread, you have the problem of “back alley abortions.” Just because it’s illegal, doesn’t mean that won’t happen, but now when they do, the lives and health of the women will be in greater danger and, thus, potentially cause harm to other people, particularly their children. Banning abortion and assuming these procedures won’t happen is, in my view, not going to be a whole lot different from banning drugs and just seeing all the crime and danger that has risen as a result of the drug war.

Moreso, I’m also left wondering exactly how it compares to regular murder. In general, there are family and friends that are bereft in a those situations and there’s measurable damage, not only to the person who was murdered, but to all those left behind. In the case of abortion, if you don’t believe it’s alive yet, the child isn’t losing anything and the mother is inflicting whatever loss she’d take on herself (the matter of the father and stuff is a bit more complicated). If you do believe the child is alive, while it’s not legally defined as alive, then the only real difference is that the child is losing something, but again, the only people who can really do anything about it are the family.

Also, while I’m at it, I think any sorts of “exceptions” are inherently dumb and contradictory. If you believe a child is alive and shouldn’t be aborted under normal circumstances, why is that child’s life worth any less because it was the result of a rape or incest or may have a birth defect? Should what you believe is a living child pay for the rape it’s father commited? Why is the life of a child with a birth defect worth less than one without one? If you are going to value life enough to want to ban abortions, I don’t see how these sorts of exceptions make any sense.

Anyway, what am I left with? I think I’d like to see a lot more discussion about where a meaningful line could/should be drawn, and less about “you kill babies” or “you hate women”, because that doesn’t save lives or protect rights, it just galvanizes the opposition. I think somewhere a line can be drawn where the majority of people can feel okay with from a legal perspective, but since I’m not a biologist or a politician, I won’t even try to hazard a guess at where it ought to be.

And all of that is said from someone who, in fact, believes that abortion is always immoral, even in the earliest term, but realizing that any legal definition that would include that doesn’t make sense, nor does legislating morality. Instead, like with drugs, like with casual sex, like with so many other things that so many people consider immoral, I think it makes more sense to legalize it, appropriately educate people on the issue, and make it safer for those who are going to do it anyway, and let the people figure out for themselves how they’ll handle the moral repercussions of their decisions and those around them.

Well done sir. Well done.

Agreed. I’m glad it’s not up to me to define the cutoff.
I used to think it should be based on some measure of how conscious the embryo is, but that’s pretty daft as it’s debatable even what level of consciousness a newborn baby experiences.

I agree that exceptions for rape, say, don’t make sense: either legalize abortions for all, or ban all, “extenuating circumstances” don’t make sense here.

But…birth defects do muddy the water again. There are some birth defects that mean the baby will die immediately on leaving the womb. Must they be kept to term? What about those that will live a painful existence for a few months and then die? What about those that will live longer but experience more pain?
It throws in another dimension of complexity IMO.

Then all laws should be repealed, since all just laws enforce some form of morality – some declaration regarding what’s right and what’s wrong.

If a law is not rooted in some sense of right or wrong, then it’s capricious. If it’s immoral, then it’s unjust. The only good laws are those that enforce some manner of morality.

I rarely give these, but

ROFLMAO!

Well, actually, the laws are there to enforce order which (ideally) allows the society to continue.

I’m okay with abortion remaining legal simply because making it illegal is of dubious value.

I see it as a moral / ethical argument, not a legal one, though it can be seen in either terms. I personally don’t care much about the whole “personhood” argument. AFAIC, the fetus needs the ongoing consent of the woman for its life support. If the pregnant woman does not wish to provide life support to the fetus, I do not think she should be required to. Unfortunately, the method of extracting the fetus (abortion) does result in the death of the fetus - but I don’t think that overrides the ability of a woman to cease being pregnant. In other words, I do not think the fetus has more say over the woman’s body than the woman herself does. So, yes, I believe abortion should be legal.
I wonder if there’s ever been an instance where one conjoined twin wanted to be separated, but the other didn’t - I doubt it. But if there had been, I wonder how that would be resolved…?

Which is still a statement of morality – that is, a declaration regarding right and wrong. In this case, it’s a declaration that order is necessary and that society should not be sacrificed for the sake of any individual. Few people would contest this, but that doesn’t make it any less of a moral claim.

Moreover, laws do not exist solely to allow society to continue. For example, society would continue to exist even if rape were to be legalized – and yet the laws against rape exist nonetheless. So your premise is incorrect in any event.

The bottom line is that all just laws require morality as their foundation. Even speed limits and other traffic laws are based on a moral principle – namely, that people should not needlessly endanger other people on the road. The particulars of these laws may vary – for example, speed limits may differ from one area to the next – but the underlying principle is still there.