I’ve been on a LOT of full flights.
How do you know at the time of sale the flight won’t be full?
I have read that at many airlines about 80-90% of flights are full or essentially so, and 10% are nearly empty.
@Dr_Paprika, please see @LSLGuy’s excellent first person discussion of flight capacity from #41.
If it was posted, I missed it.
When is the best time to get an empty flight?
I’m sure that is true, but I don’t know if it is true for every airline.
Isn’t it true pretty universally that if a consumer wants/needs more of whatever, they need to pay for it?
Way back in High School days I was a skinny little thing dating a fairly big (for HS, not pro-level line backer) guy. When we ate out, generally at a cheap place like a McDonalds, he routinely bought two value meals while I just got a regular cheeseburger. His meal cost maybe four times mine (I don’t remember exactly, been decades) but it should – he got at least four times the volume of food I did.
Nobody ever suggested he should get a second meal free, just because he was large and had a high metabolism.
ISTM that the root of the problem is that there’s no consensus on exactly what the “whatever” is that the airline is selling.
If what the airline is selling is a passage from Point A to Point B purchasable by any law-abiding and appropriately behaved passenger, then that suggests that it’s the airline’s responsibility to provide passage conditions that are effectively usable by the passengers actually buying their services.
For example, you wouldn’t charge an adult for a hotel room that offered only a baby-size crib to sleep in. So by the same token you shouldn’t charge a fat person for an air journey that provides only skinny-person-size chairs to sit in.
On the other hand, if what the airline is selling is specifically the use of a designated amount of cubic space to sit in during a passage from Point A to Point B, then the airline is entitled to decree that anyone whose body needs more cubic space than the designated amount must pay for a second seat.
But in that case, it’s the airline’s obligation to state clearly what the dimensions of the designated space are. And to ensure that any large person who purchases two seats to accommodate their extra girth and/or height is given two seats that are actually physically adjacent. Airlines are apparently pretty sucky at managing to fulfill either of those obligations.
Sure, but McDonalds isn’t selling a general commitment to the customer along the lines of “we will feed you a meal”. What they’re selling is specific items of food, and every customer can choose which and how many of such items they wish to purchase.
What airlines need to figure out, as I said, is whether they’re selling a general commitment to per-passenger transportation along a stated route, or selling designated cubic volumes of space with specific dimensions for use by each passenger being transported along the stated route.
(And if it’s the latter, then in fairness I think they need to allocate designated cubic volumes of space for cabin baggage as well. Too many luggage gluttons are continually hogging overhead locker space at the expense of those of us who conscientiously pack small and efficient hand baggage.
Personally, I like having a decent amount of space around my personal baggage without other people’s extra luggage crowding and squishing it. So I would welcome a system that says I’m entitled to the full use of my allocated luggage space, even if some of my space remains empty, and if your luggage is too big and is spilling over into my space then you need to pay additional for extra space.)
They seem pretty clear to me. They are selling a single seat. If you can’t fit in a single seat, you need to buy another. Examples:
The armrest is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size. It serves as the boundary between seats. If you’re unable to lower both armrests and/or encroach upon any portion of a seat next to you, you need a second seat.
https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/special-needs/extra-seating.html
You’ll have to buy an additional seat or upgrade if you don’t meet one of the following criteria:
- You must be able to properly attach, buckle and wear the seat belt, with one extension if necessary, whenever the seatbelt sign is illuminated or as instructed by a crew member.footnote*
- You must be able to stay seated with the seat armrest(s) down for the whole flight.
- You must not significantly encroach upon the adjacent seating space. See our seat maps.
If a customer needs extra space outside a single seat to travel safely, another seat is required
https://www.alaskaair.com/content/travel-info/policies/seating-customers-of-size
We require the purchase of an additional seat for any customer who cannot comfortably fit within one seat with the armrests in the down position. The armrest is considered to be the definitive boundary between seats; width between the armrests typically measures 17 inches for coach and 21 inches for First Class.
And so on. I agree that airlines need to be diligent about ensuring that if a customer does buy another seat, it is actually available and adjacent.
Clothing typically isn’t priced by size. (If, because of the size of your body, you want/need XL, you pay the same as if you wear a size S; although “big and tall” sizes sometimes cost more.)
Prices vary depending on what seat you select. Economy fare gets you the least space, you pay a premium for the extra leg room in an exit row, a bigger premium for even more space in business class, and a still bigger premium for the luxury accommodations of first class. Better food and service are often a part of these upgrades (particularly to business/first class), but the biggest part seems to be the extra space you get - which would suggest that airlines are selling you a certain amount of space on the plane, not simply a certain trip.
If economy class was totally full, but first/business classes totally empty, would the airline sell seats in first for the usual cost of economy, or would they rather have empty seats?
If one passenger wanted the armrest up and the other wanted it down, would the crew enforce putting it down? Is that an airline policy or would they let it be up to the passengers to work it out themselves?
That’s pretty much an invisible pink unicorn.
On flights where for some reason the upper class passenger headcounts are low, they’ll start advertising upgrades to the existing coach passengers: “For $100 extra you can sit up front in the big seats”. Now that everybody has phones and emails, these will be sent out 36 to 24 hours in advance, trolling the known customers for upgrades. As it gets closer to departure time if there’s still upper class seats left the price of an upgrade goes down. First $75, then $50, and sometimes as low as $25.
Meanwhile, anyone booked on the flight who has high status as a repeat customer will be offered a free or nearly so upgrade. Half the point of being a frequent customer is exactly those free / very low cost upgrades. We don’t ever want to leave with an empty seat, but we especially don’t want to leave with empty upper class seats. There’s almost always an opportunity for the airline to get money, or curry favor, to fill the last upper class seat.
Of course for each person who takes an upgrade, that frees up a coach seat which is instantly put out on the internet as a low-priced quick purchase deal.
It amounts to a continuous auction selling upper class seats, lower class seats, and upgrades at whatever is the highest price they can get while still filling the airplane completely.
At least where I work, the empties are the residue of mass cancellation or mass delay events. There’s really no way to plan ahead for them. Sometimes the very last flights of the day that leave late and will either stupid late or stupid early depending on east- vs west-bound are pretty light. We deliberately undersell those a bit to leave space for some of the accumulated misconnects of the day. On the rare days nothing goes wrong, there might be 10 or 15 unoccupied seats at departure time.
There are some tourist destinations where the cruise ships operate on a schedule like “Love boats leave from there on Mon & Thu only.” Trying to fly in on Mon morning or Sun night is hopeless. But Tue night or Wed morning is much lighter. The practical problem is these situations are fleeting. Pretty quickly a different cruise company will start using the port facilities on the vacant days, or the airlines will rework their schedules to be heavy on cruise days land light on non-cruise days.
The whole seat situation is terrible, starting with the specs for the “typical passenger” being way, way off the current average. Sure, post-Great Depression and WWII maybe people were that slim but we’ve all been eating our fill since then. The whole situation really needs to be redone, but meanwhile everyone is cramped and squished and cranky.
“Middle seat passengers: Both armrests belong to you. That is my gift to you”
Excuse me, these are volumetric passengers, thankyouverymuch.
In Canada, a large person is able to get an extra seat for free. You just need to jump through some hoops -as in a Doctor has to complete a “fitness to fly” form, including a measurement of your girth, as shown on page eight of the Air Canada PDF:
didn’t Michael Moore complain about that?
Pretty sure he complains about everything.
Getting a “Fat Fuck Authorization Card” from your doctor to get an extra free seat might qualify as degrading to the more sensitive types though.