Community college can also be a good option for people who want a vocational associates degree. I really wish they tracked those stats separately: a community college is really 2 different institutions. However, less that 15% of students complete any type of certificate in 2 years, and 22% in three, so the dream of popping into community college, getting an HVAC cert in a couple years, and then entering the workforce isn’t working out great. However, it’s possible that only 25% of students enrolling in CC are even aiming to do that, and within that group, there’s a high completion rate. I’m not finding that data.
An HVAC cert is much less than two years, as are many certs one can get at a CC. (In San Diego you can get an HVAC cert in 18 weeks, for free, in the noncredit program.) For California data, at least, you can see the Cal-PASS Launchboard. I don’t know how representative that is of the whole country. (This was touched upon somewhat in post #16.) As far as I know, there isn’t any national clearinghouse for this data, yet, though there have been some studies.
One of the most important things you can get out of the “college experience” is connections. I agree that there are some benefits to knocking out your core classes in CC and transferring to a 4-year institution, but the trade-off is that you miss out on critical bonding experiences. Not just with fellow students, but with professors. For instance, in the sciences, on-campus research assistant positions are highly coveted by undergraduates. You don’t just walk into a professor’s office and ask for a job. Professors usually pick students from their classes. Thus, transfer students interested in those kinds of jobs are disadvantaged since they have to compete against students who have spent the previous two or three years making positive impressions all over the department. This is especially true in small departments.
When I think about my undergraduate experience, I would say that what happened in the 2nd year of my coursework set me on the path to where I am now (more than 20 years later). I could have taken my 2nd year classes at a CC, but then I would have had totally different instructors. Another set of instructors may have done absolutely nothing for me with regards to mentoring and inspiration.
Some great posts on this thread. Lots of insight.
We also need to realize some people just dont want to ever go into a classroom again after high school. I have a relative like that. He started at a tech school then dropped out. However he found a job and is doing well. Technically he would be a “college dropout” but maybe that term is shoved around when in reality it isnt such a bad thing?
College isnt for everyone. Yes it helps but many people have the drive, talent, and just good luck to find themselves in a good career without it.
Profs pick students from their classes who show motivation and good grades. Which is typical for kids who have been brought up their whole lives expecting the “college experience”, and thus never considered a community college.
But for kids who are unmotivated, unsure (or totally clueless) why they are enrolling in college, the only “connections” they find there will be for buying pot;they won’t be visiting the professor during his office hours or even asking the librarians for help finding information. Those kids may well be better off at a community college, not going into debt to pay for a 4 year campus school.
Manda JO’s post challenges this notion, though.
At any rate, I know that I didn’t expect the “college experience”. I was repulsed by the very idea, being an extreme introvert, prude, and teetotaler. I was also a planktonic creature as a college kid. Didn’t care about connections. I didn’t even know about research. Didn’t have any career aspirations. A good college provides an environment that turns planktonic students into salmon and helps them find their way. That transition often happens during the first two years in that environment.
That’s not really true. At least it’s not as binary as you make it out to be. Professors aren’t the only connections, and many times they aren’t even the best ones. Other potential connections include:
-On campus recruiting
-Older students who graduate ahead of you, land jobs and can submit your resume at their companies
-Your parents or the parents of your friends
-Your classmates as professional peers as you advance in your career
What do you mean, “Oh no”? Nothing you said about LATI contradicts what I said about it. A vocational training institute which operates largely online offering <4-year certification and diploma programs can still have “big labs where students practice on the things for the career”.
You started this thread asking if colleges should publish more stats about how useful/successful their programs actually are. I said “Well, they do, and honestly, a lot of them are not as successful as you might think” You responded with “well, maybe those stats don’t tell the whole story and people shouldn’t worry too much about them”.
If you dismiss stats when they go against the narrative you’ve decided to believe, don’t you think everyone else will to? Why publish a “placement report” if the stats don’t matter?
Sorry, I didnt mean to offend. Yes, any and all data a college can show are good.
On the admin bloat issue, do you think the amount of academic graduates (not countig undergrad since they are mostly unpaid) coupled with tenured positions increase that?
If so, what do we do about pushing kids into(or out of) those academic positions or allow them to “move up the ladder” so to speak?