The law was passed in response to SNAP protesting outside churches and handing out leaflets accusing priests of covering up child abuse.
Like you, I don’t see any reason for a law specific to churches nor any reason why religious services deserve more protection from loud or obnoxious speech than abortion clinics.
That’s because of the specific circumstances of the US differ from those in Europe. If we suffered through a horrifying world war in which our homegrown version of Nazis were responsible, we would enact those laws too. We don’t even have to speculate. How many Native American reservations exist that have exemptions from many types of laws? We can be more accepting of the messy consequences of a free society and still realize that when the mess gets to be too bad, we can make laws to clean it up
I didn’t say political speech did I? Respond to the argument I made, not the one you wish I made. I’ve clearly mentioned that I consider these protestors to be engaging in harassment. That’s why I feel its ok to limit their actions
Is it morally wrong to ask a woman to risk her life? This is the case many times. Are the protesters donating money for the childs support? Are they just trying to push their religious views on another? Do they know if the fertile egg gets to be born, will it be cared for,abused, negelcted etc. Look at Haiti, and some countries where children are starving, and they and their mothers eyes are so glossy and nothing but skin and bones, so they die a long and suffering death? Wouldn’t a morning after pill, or some sure way of contraception be better?
Perhaps the woman could wear something over her ears, and play music music so she can’t hear them. Let them rant, they can’t live her life, nor do theyknow the reason she is entering the clinic, it is really none of their business, I would wear a sign saying," bray if you choose, I don’t speak or understand donkey talk"!
And there are women that are traumatized and the thought of ‘running a gauntlet’ to get in for either an abortion, wellness check or some entirely OTHER GYN reason makes them not run the gauntlet. Some people have anxiety disorders that literally prevent them from moving through a small quiet crowd, now imagine one tryign to get through a picket line. Blocking does not have to be physical.
And as I said, these morons do not seem to understand that every single woman headed into the building is not getting an abortion, Planned Parenthood is more into health checkups, education and family planing, a miniscule amount of abortions are done/planned/whatever in a given year. Any GYN office is also in the business of wellness checks, testing, pre/during/postnatal care and a small number of abortions in any given year. It is not like 40 or 50 are done each day, they may get 10 a week at best. Why they feel that yelling and waving placards at everybody walking into a building is going to magically change their minds is totally beyond me. If anything it will annoy the people enough to really disincline them to bother thinking about any message. Worse case scenario? Some poor woman with a funny pain is going to be driven away without ever discovering that little pain was stage 1 ovarian cancer, or a cyst getting ready to pop and cause peritonitis.
I’d like to contribute a funny abortion protester story.
When I was applying for Peace Corps, I had to undergo their lengthy medical clearance process. I was uninsured at the time, and I had health care providers literally hang up on me when I tried to make appointments. Planned Parenthood agreed to provide all the needed services, at a very affordable cost. The clinic I went to provided abortions, and there was always a set of protestors with graphic billboard-sized posters. They pissed me off, for sure. Were they willing to pay for my physical or help me in any way? But mostly I ignored them.
As I mentioned, the medical clearance process is long and deeply unfun. It involves a doctor filling out around eight pages of forms describing everything you can think of (there is a line for the color of your anus, for example), and maybe a dozen tests, many of them obscure and invasive.
After many visits and much poking and prodding, I finally finished the last form with a clean bill of health and was ready to submit my paperwork and see where Peace Corps was going to send me. I was elated! So as I was walking out of the clinic with my lab results in hand, I turned without thinking to my good friend and ride-provider Tom (who is as gay as gay can be) and gushed “Oh my god, we did it! It’s finally over! This is the best day ever high five! I looooooooove my life. Go team! We rock!” Tim returned the affection, and we sauntered jubilantly down the street.
As I got in the car, a very shocked looking protester ran over and handed me a card for some of their BS post-abortion counseling. I was five minutes down the road when I finally figured out what she thought she was seeing.
Bwhahahahahhahaha.
Awesome story!
Our local Planned Parenthood is right opposite our library. I have seen protestors put their hands on women trying to walk away from them. I have seen them shove their pamphlets into cars after the drivers have refused to accept it from them. I have seen them run down the streets after people have said “no” and walked away from them. I have seen them try to talk to woman who come out of the clinic crying their eyes out.
Harrassment? You betcha, sweetie.
I see canvassers in DC every day doing that for whatever their pet cause is, bet it greenpeace or whatever.
Do you think women are equals or do they need special protections from having to deal with facts of life in a country with the first amendment?
Lots of people find gay rights offensive, especially gay marriage. Those who support outlawing abortion protests,w ould you be fine with outlawing pro same sex marriage protests as well? Or do only the things you don’t like get banned?
A better methaphor would be people protesting and shouting " you desececrate marriage!" to guys having a private wdding ceremony ceremony with friends and family. Does that happen?
I don’t believe you have a right to privacy on a public street. And I can’t see how your medicals privacy was harmed, unless they followed you inside and read the appointment book.
If there were no protesters there that day, would you have expected the people walking by to avert their eyes when you approached the building so as not to see what kind of doctors were in there? Should there be secret underground entryways for medical buildings?
I don’t think speech should be curtailed to prevent people from feeling bad or sad or embarrassed. The very thought of it gives me the creeps.
It depends on what you mean by a “private” ceremony. Abortion protests happen in public. So does traveling to an abortion clinic.
Regards,
Shodan
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Yes, that’s it, exactly. I hate the people that do this, I feel terrible for the women (and, let’s face it, sometimes girls) who have to walk these kinds of gauntlets, but…that’s not enough to curtail free speech in my book.
I’m just barely okay with curtailing free speech for physical safety* - the classic example being that you don’t have the freedom to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater when there isn’t a fire, because the likely result is a stampede that could be anticipated to cause people injury or death.
I’m not okay with curtailing free speech for *emotional *safety. (But I do think that we as a country are moving in that direction.)
*I’m just barely okay with this because I think it’s been used to justify illegitimately suppressing free speech, too. The aforementioned “Free Speech Zones” have been defended and justified as being primarily about security and preventing riots or assault of speakers, but I think it’s largely bullshit.
Yes, protests have been held at/near gay weddings in public parks. I’m having some trouble finding specific news reports at the moment, 'cause it’s old hat and not reported on much anymore, and google searches for keywords like “protest at gay wedding” bring up a lot of hits about protesting *about *gay weddings.
Oh come on, now you are not discussing in an honest way. If I need to spell it out for you: the protestors near clinics aim their protest not at passers by, but at women who leave the sidewalk to go into the clinic. So your pretense of “we have the right to protest on a public street” is dishonest.
In my hypothetical and analogous wedding situation, to resemble the clinic situation, protestors would stand outside of city hall and adress only same sex couples (or same sex pairs of people) going in or coming out. If these people came out of city hall dressed festively and smiling, they would target them even more.
But I bet that if the couple came out of city hall with a dozen friends and relatives in tow, the protestors would stay silent for fear of getting their asses handed to them by the wedding party.
And actually, I think that is the only reason you don’t see many protestors outside places that perform gay marriages. However “disgusted” people claim to be about same sex marriage, there they keep the protest indeed to the general public space. It safer to harrass a scared woman entering a clinic alone, then it is to harrass a gay or lesbian couple and their friends and get a butch come-uppance.
No, it is the same thing. Abortion protesters aim their protest at the government, and at other citizens so as to try to push the government to outlaw abortion, and to deter other citizens from getting abortions in the meantime.
We do have the right to protest on a public street. We have the right to aim our protest at private citizens as well as at the government.
What is your basis for claiming that gays are more likely to resort to violence than abortion escorts?
Regards,
Shodan
No, I don’t think any of this is accurate, although I can see where it might be concluded if you didn’t live in the US.
First of all..there *are *protests against gay marriage, quite often at the offices where you go to get a marriage or civil union application, and sometimes at the weddings themselves.
Second of all…if a couple lives in an area where protest against gay marriage is vocal and/or violent, they’re far more likely to get married quietly in their home or backyard than to have a lavish public affair on the steps of city hall. You can’t quietly get an abortion in your living room (well, not safely, anyhow), so the comparison with abortion clinics doesn’t really work.
I meant verbally. My basis..do I really have to spell out to you that a lonely woman is less likely to feel strong enough to verbally defend herself? While a happy couple, strong together, and even stronger with their friends behind them, can defenc themselves in the same way they are attacked? (yada yada within the law and using just words, tone of voice, body language, etc)
But are they as common as the gauntlets at clinics still are? I had never heard of them untill now.
The comparison does work, but only in the sense that there, the earlier protests have worked. Rather then running a gauntlet and running into unpleasantries, spoiling a wedding, the ss couples stayed home. I bet that if women could avoid running the gauntlets, they would.
I understand your viewpoint of not curtailing free speech, WhyNot. It is commendable that your think these protestors should be protected by the laws on free speech.
I’m taking a leave of the board, so I won’t be back to post in a while. Feel free to to get the last word, or to let this thread sink, no doubt another will take its place. 