Should Antifa violence be condemned?

Great Debates
41

Trumpists and other right-wingers seem to think that if they can find one Hillary voter somewhere whe did something just as heinous as Trump et al do, it’s a wash — Tu quoque. “Trump is forced to tell 17 lies per day because a Democratic postmaster in Oshkosh told a white lie once.”

It would all be amusing if the Hannity-Jones viewers were just a few doped senior citizens in nursing homes. But instead they’ve taken over the country. :eek:

Careful; the right-wing word-twisters may claim you’re condoning violence on ever day except Inaug Day! I’ll exclude the entire week:
You should not burn that car on Monday.
You must not burn that bus on Tuesday.
Not in the park. Not in the dark.
Not for a lark. Not with a spark.
Don’t burn that truck on Wednesday or Thursday.
Leave it be on Friday and Saturday.
Don’t kill that Nazi on a Sunday.
Just get high and make it a fun day.
Not with a fall. Not in a brawl.
Not in the hall. Not in the mall.
You must not burn that car at all!
I see octopus has joined us. In another thread he is convinced that most or all SDMB liberals applaud antifa violence, though he couldn’t remember the name of a single one. I hope the Dopers who support anti-Nazi violence confess to refresh his memory. But I’m not sure who you are — Most of you progressives didn’t even want to bomb Saddam Hussein. :smack:

42

You could show us an example of such an apologist. You could then direct your indignation at a real person.

43

Yeah, you are. You’re talking about the non-violent Antifa people, saying they have some obligation to leave the group because of the violent party crashers.

44

I did want to discuss this, but it seems people have already drawn the lines and set things up where, if I say what I want to say, it will be interpreted as different than what I mean. Since I don’t know how to get around this, I’ll just say what I wanted to say, and let the chips fall where they may.

Should Antifa violence be condemned?

You can’t really ask a question like that without specifics. There is this meme in society that violence is always wrong, but few who argue this actually believe it. Those people have no problem supporting the military, for example. They inherently thus argue that, if the cause is just enough, and the need high enough, violence can be allowed.

So then the question becomes whether or not a specific instance of violence was justified. Unfortunately, I don’t know of many actual incidences of Antifa violence. I do know what the right likes to claim about Antifa, and, assuming the truth in their statements, I generally stand behind decrying the violence. It isn’t helpful if you blow up a car, beat up some protesters who weren’t doing anything, make colleges into war zones, etc. But how much this actually happens and is actually linked with Antifa, I don’t know.

However, I will say that I can’t ignore one thing: Unite the Right 2. In it, the 1500 people from last year were reduced to 12 this year. And while part of this was because of speech, getting people in trouble back home as they were seen on camera, part of this was that Antifa fought back against the violent Nazis. Many Nazis mentioned this time that they were too afraid to come out because of Antifa. I’m sorry, but that’s a win.

It reminds me of the Black Panthers and Malcolm X during the Civil Rights Movement. A small number of violent people clearly played a part in the revolution here. I can’t ignore that. I can’t put myself in that bubble that preaches violence is always wrong while supporting our military. I have to acknowledge that, sometimes, when the bad guys are causing harm, the violence of fighting back can be the lesser harm.

But that does not mean I support any and all violence. It must be justified. And, most of the time, it is not. But I can’t ignore that it has worked repeatedly throughout history. America wouldn’t exist without it.

I wish it were as simple as “violence = bad.”

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It may be due to the company I keep and the venues I frequent, but I have not been within punching distance of a Nazi for years. If I ever am again I can assure you there will be another “Florida Man” headline about some poor White Supremacist who was assaulted for no reason.

You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach.

46

Careful. We have Stand Your Ground here.

47

Ahem. I presume l0k1 is a real person, and as you will note I responded directly to this point to protest the point s/he was making.

48

It’s okay. I’m white.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

49

So you’ll beat it out of them?

50

If only that actually was an apologia for violence, you might have a point.

51

Ah. Fighting against Nazis makes more of them, so let’s not fight them. Works for me.

52

Yes.

My people were like number four on the Nazi’s to-do list and I cannot countenance anyone who willingly adopts the symbols or rhetoric of Nazism.
Call me intolerant or violent if you will, but I believe that swastikas and “blood and soil” are an incitement.

You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach.

53

Does that include assaulting reporters?

Once someone assaults the free press, they’re trying to destroy free speech, a cornerstone of a free society.

54

I do not support assaulting the press, even so far as the name calling and covering of cameras which is reported.

I do reserve my option to punch Nazis.

You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach.

55

Big T, I know you sometimes take alot of heat for your posts, but I hope that only makes you more thoughtful about how you respond, not fearful. You’ve made a very thoughtful response to this discussion and I think it encapsulates the feelings of many in our society today.

But I would like to take to task a couple of your points.

First, there are many of us who believe that violence is wrong in all situations; including the military and police.

Second (and maybe more importantly to your point) there is a difference between violence and use of force. And there is a difference between individual action and state action. Violence is the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force. When the military or police use force, it is because they have been legally authorized to do so.

When you talk about the Black Panthers, you are mistaken that they approved of or advocated violence. What they did was make a show out of arming themselves for self defense and stating in no uncertain terms that they would not hesitate to use “whatever means necessary” to protect themselves. They did not take offensive action.

As to the “win” achieved in Charlottesville. I don’t share your assessment. They managed to stop one rally. they did not change any minds, they did not prove that their point of view was more morally correct than the other. Just because you don’t see them any more, doesn’t mean they’ve gone away, and some would argue that it has just given them renewed vigor.

And, finally, just because you think violence has worked in the past doesn’t mean it actually has. Violence doesn’t work against ideas. Violence only works against people. And while you may just want these people to go away, if you don’t defeat their ideas they will come back.

mc

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“God is with us, so who can possibly stand against us?” is a sentiment not entirely reserved for the monarchist right.

As someone interested in living in a society, it’s in my interest to stand against anyone using force except in self-defense. It doesn’t matter what banner the violent wrap themselves in, they’re violent, so they’re my enemy. Maybe not now, but soon, and utterly implacably.

57

This. Why people think it’s acceptable to go hands on with people who say things they don’t like is a bit of a mystery to me, but why anyone in this day and age thinks it would be anything but utter foolishness to do so in Florida is completely beyond my comprehension.

Unless you’re also bulletproof I don’t see how this is relevant.

58

Hope fulfilled?

59

Just who is Antifa? Yeah, I’ve seen the few folks in a large crowd of counter demonstrators that actually commit violent acts, but who knows who they really are under the masks? Then the righties get all violent back and people like Heather Heyer get killed. But I can’t help recalling the words of Abbie Hoffman (remember him?) who said that he could always spot police infiltrators because they were the ones always calling for violence, well that and the haircuts. Personally, I’m strongly against the use or threatened use of violence as an instrument of politics, but let’s not kid ourselves. There may be fascists who, at the moment, aren’t doing anything violent, but in their heads they’re already sticking folks into ovens. And as some point, maybe before any of us know it, the Marquis of Queensbury stuff ain’t gonna cut it anymore.

60

I do appreciate the honesty. I don’t think it’s a productive position to take in a functioning democracy but time will tell.