Yes.
I was responding to someone saying that violence is never justified.
That was going to be my next point. But first I had to establish that violence was sometimes justified.
Lets get down from the abstract to the concrete. The Richard Spencer punch–who’s cool with it?
BTW, Spencer's Wikipedia page says he head of a "white supremacist think tank". Talk about your oxymorons.Well, you see “Antifa” is a very nebulous movement, if indeed it is a movement at all. Not very organized, few leaders. And other than at the 2017 Unite the Right rally they have done almost nothing that has anything to do with being “anti-fascists” since actual nazis are pretty damn rare in the USA.
*
Antifa protesters couldn’t find any fascists at Unite the Right — and harassed the press instead*
However, they have been heavily infiltrated by the Black Bloc anarchists, who are indeed a very real, very violent and very dangerous group (but not all that organized either, except in a few places like Berkeley).
A black bloc caused damage to property of GAP, Starbucks, Old Navy, and other retail locations in downtown Seattle during the 1999 anti-WTO demonstrations…During the 2010 G20 Summit in Toronto, a black bloc riot damaged a number of retail locations including an Urban Outfitters, American Apparel, Adidas Store, Starbucks and many banking establishments.
*They’ve been around for decades, but in the past three months they’ve been especially visible: protesters in head-to-toe black clothing and ski masks, charging through the streets in public demonstrations, provoking police and leaving a trail of broken windows and flaming piles of debris in their wake.
Pockets of them sowed chaos during peaceful protests in Portland the week Donald Trump was elected president, smashing electrical boxes and spray-painting buildings, and prompting a volley of rubber bullets from authorities.
They turned out by the hundreds at Trump’s inauguration in January, vandalizing a Starbucks and a Bank of America and torching a limousine in downtown Washington.*
They go to peaceful demonstrations, like those for Black Lives Matter, and turn them violent, thus turning the populace and voters against such movements.
So, they arent 'anti-fascist so much as anti-Republican… and anti Democrat, and anti-American, and they want to violently overthrow the American government- and all others.
They ain’t heros. Once- they fought actual fascists.* Once. * My Dad fought more Fascists than they have even seen.
So, they ain’t even “anti-fascists”. They are just violent privileged stupid ass white boys, out for some fun by destroying shit and getting away with it.
Not any more. The Black Bloc wants to turn every peaceful protest into violence. They are not the friend of protestors, they are the sworn foe.
I’m not. I do find it ironic that he was making the point to the reporter that leftist protesters were increasingly violent and one came along at just that moment to demonstrate the point.
E: For reference, the vast majority of this video/mini-doc has direct video from primary sources – alt-right livestreams of the event. The evidence is incontrovertible that white supremacy dominated the rally.
You can read an independent analysis Charlottesville hired on the police incompetence here: https://web.archive.org/web/20180113182017/https://www.charlottesville.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=59615
Sure, and that has been what- once? In 2017?
There just ain’t that many Nazis in the USA.
wiki "*In April 2017, two groups described as “anti-fascist/anarchist”, including the socialist/environmentalist Direct Action Alliance, threatened to disrupt the 82nd Avenue of Roses Parade after hearing the Multnomah County Republican Party would participate. The parade organizers also received an anonymous email, saying: “You have seen how much power we have downtown and that the police cannot stop us from shutting down roads so please consider your decision wisely”. " …I/I]
Now, I am hardly a fan of the GOP, but they are not really Nazis.
Yes, that was the 2017 United the Right rally in Charlottesville, where indeed there were some very real Nazis and Klansmen.
However, the WaPo article I quoted was about the 2018 United the Right rally in **Washington DC. ** Where there were no Nazis or KKK so Atifa turned their violence against a Free Press.
So, you didnt bother to read the cite, and are thus utterly and completely wrong. Nice job!
In fairness, your cite doesn’t load for me, but I’ve been having internet issues recently.
Okay, I got it to load, yes, I was wrong. They shouldn’t have done that in this case. I can understand them not wanting to be filmed but they shouldn’t assault reporters.
And I accepted a little violence vs actual, you know, armband wearing/ sheet donning Nazis and KKK.
I dont condone or condemn violence vs those idiots. But I admit it would be hard for me to convict a antifa guy who actually punched a real nazi. (which has happened exactly *once *in their history in the USA).
Earlier in this thread, you said this:
It seems that leftists holding American flags and reporters trying to cover an event have also been the victims of Antifa violence. Do you have any tips to help them avoid Antifa violence too, or is it possible that you were wrong about this as well?
I also said that Antifa is horizontally organized with some cells being better or worse, smarter or stupider than others. And if you’re by a bad cell that does absurd or dangerous things, then no, I don’t exactly have advice. Like, trust me, I can rant all day about stupid leftists I’ve encountered, I had to leave one Discord because half the people there wanted to unironically kill all cis or straight people, and thought if we just started shooting people we could have an anarcho-communist utopia tomorrow :rolleyes:, but the overarching philosophy of Antifascism, and the great majority (who mostly do work that is not very visible) are fine and that holds.
Antifa, I’d also point out, has a great degree of crossover with Left-Anarchism and similar viewpoints, and there a quite a lot of quite violent revolutionary anarchists I disagree with. I’m unsurprised that some cells with viewpoints that lean closer to that assaulted the press. I’m not saying they’re not “Antifa”, I’m saying that Antifa is a thing you can do. Antifascist action is something you perform, and something you aspire to, and some people are better or worse, mix in other ideologies into their ostensibly antifascist action (or outright hijack the purpose of a rally) for better or worse. In the 2018 rally it’s for worse.
People try to get on Antifa for “not condemning” this or that, but that’s because “Antifa” isn’t an organization and has no official structure, leadership, or PR. Every cell, and every person aligned with them, is going to have different viewpoints on what exactly is right or wrong, and none of them are any more or less “Antifa” than the others.
I haven’t really seen that in this thread. I’ve seen people get on fellow Dopers for excusing / defending / supporting Antifa violence, but I haven’t seen anyone “get on Antifa” for “not condemning” this or that. The OP, with the title “Should Antifa violence be condemned?” was directed at Dopers, not Antifa.
As for me, I couldn’t care less if some Proud Boy or Nazi shithead gets the punch that’s coming to him. America’s a violent place; I hear some people even carry guns wherever they go, just in case.
That’s probably why I haven’t punched anyone in a while.
To be clear, I am not anti-Republican although they have made it very difficult lately. I oppose Republican agendas which I feel are bad for my country at the voting booth and by writing my legislators. I would never dream of punching someone for being a Republican.
However, if someone deliberately adopts the symbols and rhetoric of Nazism within my arm’s reach they will be punched, damn the consequences.
You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach.
How would you feel if some Antifa thugs get ventilated for attacking someone?
Actions have consequences. Some movements need martyrs. Can you imagine the headlines (on any media outlet other than Fox) about how White Supremacists used deadly force against counter demonstrators?
You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t use reason to reach.
No different than I feel now because I already regard white supremacists as scum.