Should Biden bother showing up for the next two debates?

Hell no, he should absolutely avoid this at all costs.

He doesn’t owe people an apology. It’s not he who should apologize to the American people, it’s the American people - 63 million of them to be exact - who should apologize to him for forcing him to come out of retirement and run for the presidency. FFS, I will lose respect for Biden if he panders to these fuckers or if he panders to ignorant, “disaffected” voters who can’t tell their asses from their elbows. He shouldn’t cry “racist” either, but he can’t be a weakling.

The few undecided voters who are having extreme anxiety about whom to vote for are basically well-meaning people but are either ignorant, naive, or both. They’re not going to make a logical decision about whom to vote for; they’re going to end up going with their instincts. Apologizing to voters is going to make Biden look weak.

As I said elsewhere, these undecided voters are fickle and they are more persuaded by who looks ‘alpha’ more than they are who looks human. Trump’s act last night was the alpha male chimp shaking the tree and throwing stones to show other chimps who the top monkey is. Trump knows the value of these debates, and he’s using them to mine votes. Biden doesn’t need to descend to Trump’s level of apeshitness, but he absolutely MUST avoid being or appearing weak and feeble.

I was worried about him the first 20-30 minutes. But he recovered as the debate went on. I just wonder how many people tuned out and concluded that Biden didn’t have it in him after the first half hour was over.

The American middle class voter doesn’t give a shit about classy; the average American voter is disturbed and cynical. They want someone who can channel their anger to some degree, which was why they voted for Trump back in 2016.

What Biden could do is to convey that he understands their frustration but find ways to turn it back on to Trump himself. I think he missed some opportunities to do that last night.

He should say something like "Look, I agree with the president that people are tired of politicians saying one thing but not following through. But when I was vice president, Obama and I followed through for the American people. We expanded healthcare for millions of people that Trump wants to take away. We ended the worst recession in 80 years, and we didn’t raise taxes - wanted to do more in terms of making taxes fairer but Mitch McConnell was in the way. We certainly believe people as rich as Donald Trump should pay more than $750."

He’s already taking some hits for arguing with the moderator last night. Imagine how it will look if he treats the regular citizens asking questions the same way. Professional politicians and news reporters are expected to take some shit as part of their job, but regular folks like those who will attend this next debate are supposed to be treated better.

Biden has to. He’ll look weak if he doesn’t. I like the idea of soundproof booths.

I strongly disagree. There are certainly voters who prize alpha-ness, which they view as interrupting and bulldozing anyone else. Those voters are firmly in Trump’s camp already.

Where Biden can make gains is with voters who don’t like Trump but came away from the first debate complaining about two school children fighting. They are disgusted with politics and see no reason to vote if their choice is between two people trying to out-bully the other. A direct appeal to those voters - that we can move away from this divisiveness - can get them out to vote.

Polls show Americans thought Biden 'won" but they hated the moderations… or lack thereof.

Having trump commit open treason on national TV and acting like a deranged loon only helps Biden. Biden can just stand there, chuckle, shake his head, and look appealingly toward the audience and Joe “wins”.

Trump refused to allow microphone control.

I am going to push back on this a little because it’s important to understand what the debates mean in terms of shaping perceptions and actually changing voting behavior.

Let’s start with the obvious: my exact math might be wrong, right at this moment, but about 45-48% of the people who vote are probably determined to vote for Biden no matter what. About 42-45% of the people who plan to vote are equally determined to vote for Trump no matter what. We’re talking about right now, not election day. Both candidates will probably add about 2-3% of ‘leaners’ who will come home on election day. But we’re talking about upwards of 5 to 10% of people who haven’t decided what they’re going to do. Some might vote third party. Some might come home to their parties or party preferences. Some might not vote at all. There’s still a lot up for grabs. About 90% of the voters who watched last night’s debate aren’t changing their positions at all; they’re just cheering their guy on.

It’s that 5-10% of viewers that I worry about. And let me say it now: Trump will actually get at least some of these voters. He might not get but 2 or 3 out of these ten to actually come vote for him, but he will get some of that vote. But that’s not the most dangerous consequence of these ‘debates.’

Trump can ‘win’ by turning the entire thing into a shit show and forcing some exasperated voters to not vote at all. That’s the strategy he’s using here. He’s not trying to make himself look better; he’s trying to make Biden look worse, so that by the end of the 2nd or 3rd debate, undecided voters are so fed up with the debates that they decide ‘They both suck.’

Remember, if they both suck, that benefits Trump more than Biden. It’s another, more sophisticated form of voter suppression: make the voters unenthusiastic about either candidate so that only the hardliners show up to vote. That’s also why Donald Trump refused to disavow white supremacists because he was speaking their language last night, and the white supremacists told everyone on twitter that they got his message loud and clear, and that Trump can absolutely count on their support.

Biden could lose if he continues with these debates and with this format. He can, and should, offer to continue but only with a change in rules. Right now, there’s near universal, bipartisan agreement that the debate was a sleaze fest. Biden would be well within his rights in the eyes of many to demand a higher standard of debate format, and he must demand that before the next two debates. If he doesn’t insist on changes, on cutting off Trump’s mic and on fact checks, and if he walks into the next two debates and get bombarded with more sleaze, this only benefits Trump. It benefits Trump if Biden fights back because then Biden is making himself look less presidential, and it benefits Trump if Biden sits there with his head down and looks weak.

Here’s another danger: Notice how Trump tried to push Biden into disagreeing with Sanders’ progressives? Whether it worked this time or not, I don’t know, but this won’t be the last time Trump tries this tactic. He wants Biden to start clarifying where he stands with respect to the progressive wing of the party, and the danger is that he could start pushing Biden into making statements that make young Millennial and digital natives doubt Biden’s street cred. In a different time, I’d say “Tough, debates are about showing your mettle and letting people know where you stand.” But Trump is a pathological liar and a bully, and there’s just too much at stake to let him get away with derailing the debate and further gaslighting the public.

I think the pundits couldn’t be more wrong on this. Biden won’t win these types of debates; his image will gradually suffer as a result, and what we’ll be left with are the most fervent supporters, who will undoubtedly be Trump’s legion of anti-tax authoritarians and white Christian nationalists.

Biden has to demand that any new debates have an entirely different format that involves cutting the mic and giving time for some legitimate answers. These debates aren’t just bad for the candidates, they’re bad for the democracy. People at home walk away feeling like there’s nothing of substance that comes from hearing the candidates talk - something that erodes the strength of democracy and plays further into the hands of authoritarians like Trump and the modern GOP. As if using the debates as a platform to tell the American people that he fully intends to discredit the elections wasn’t bad enough, the entire debate event was a sham shit show. If Biden agrees to more of these, then he’s just making his own thorny little bed.

It doesn’t matter what the polls say when most of those polls include partisans who’ve already made up their minds anyway. What’s more telling is that everyone hated the debate event itself - that plays into Trump’s hands a lot more than Biden’s. If you don’t see that now, you will.

These are pundits predictions. It’s the market. People actually betting their own money where they think they can earn a profit. It’s people betting on the outcome.

And they were wrong in 2016, and they could be wrong now. People gamble and lose all the time. I’m talking about real human psychology and real collective behavior in a democracy.

Biden’s best response of the night was to the moderator, when he said “I’m not listening to him.” He should continue with that idea and just ignore anything that is not on topic: “This is my plan for health care. The rest of what you said is not on topic and doesn’t warrant a response.”

The Commission on Presidential Debates are making changes:

I prefaced the link with FWIW. It’s pretty clear that I wasn’t putting too much stock in it.

To be fair, Chris Wallace did as well as he could with the format rules. How many times can he interrupt - Trump kept talking over him and Biden both. Wallace actually criticized Trump directly and repeatedly. The moderator agrees to go with the rules, which I thought he did. Wallace is not to blame.

It’s the rules that are to blame. The Commission needs to have the foresight to know what Trump (or any candidate for that matter ) will do, especially if past behavior indicates that he’s likely to be a jackass.

Hopefully rules changes will make for a more quality debate, but we’ll have to see what the changes are. They really ought to have someone controlling Trump’s mic. And I think the standard format of letting two candidates speak in real time, interrupting each other - which they were doing even before the Trump era - that has outlived its usefulness. Voters don’t get anything of value from this shit.

As I said: have there are sets of questions: one set from a panel of moderators, one from voters, and one from the candidates themselves. Each set can have maybe 2 or 3 questions, with the last round being Q&A between candidates, but with strict controls on the microphones (backup mics in case the cord shorts or whatever). And there ought to be a consortium of fact checkers.

For like the tenth time- trump has refused to debate if the microphones can be turned off. So there is no use listing that. It wont happen.

Which is fine with me.

Biden should put it out in the open that he will continue with the debates but only with rules changes, and if Trump refuses to abide by these rules, then that’s on Trump. All Biden has to say is that Trump isn’t interested in a debate, and that he’s not interested in giving Trump more free air time. He’ll look ‘weak’ in the eyes of MAGA-bots, but so fucking what?

I know we at SDMB believe Biden won, as does much of the media, but he didn’t. And Biden will look far worse by continuing down the road he started down last night. That’s how Trump could actually win the election legitimately, and even if he doesn’t, he’ll just use the debates as a stage to tell his millions of supporters that the elections are rigged and that they should be ready to go to war.

Biden should challenge Trump to a real and fair debate, or the debates are over.

But this contradicts your earlier point about trump winning because he’s the alpha

He would then be able to say without lying that they (Democrats) won’t debate without CHANGING THE RULES. So by your argument it is lose - lose for the Democrats. If Biden says we won’t play without new rules, he looks weak. If he continues to go with current and unenforced rules, Trump gets to talk all over him, looking strong and in charge. While I hope the CPD puts some measures into place, it means jack all if Trump won’t agree, or as in this debate, ignores them when on screen. Any effort to stop him once he goes live is going to be doomed to fail.

I’m pointing out that this is what he’s using his televised performance for. The “debates” are a performance for Trump; they are not a debate. Do not assume that we at SDMB who analyze the facts and demand cites are in any way indicative of how the typical last-minute voter that will decide this election thinks.

No, he doesn’t look weak, because he already lived up to his agreement to debate. Everyone who saw the debate - even Fox News and NY Post - acknowledge that Trump turned the debate into a food fight. So Biden would understandably be wasting his time and everyone else’s time by agreeing to go back to that kind of situation again. There is no need to insult anyone’s intelligence like that.

It’s the live performance that matters, not the appearance of ducking a debate. Everyone knows that Biden doesn’t duck debates and that he has his acuity, and Biden wouldn’t be backing out of a debate; he’s just demanding that the debate format improve - for the good of viewers at home. It wouldn’t be a wuss move at all to back out if they can’t improve the format. But it will gradually erode Biden’s image as the good guy if he agrees to get in the gutter with Trump, and/or it will gradually erode Biden’s image if he’s getting worn out, emotional, tired, mentally anguished. This is what Trump wants voters at home to look at. You’ve got to understand what’s really driving this behavior at a psychological level.

Remember, it’s not just about the national polls; Trump is trying to chip away at Biden’s strength, one percentage point at a time so he can just barely win states like PA, FL, OH, and NC. Or come close enough to contest the election. How does he do that? By suppressing Biden’s voters. By turning those voters off. And by energizing his base while doing that.

Then Biden should say that he refuses to participate without reassurance that Trump will abide by the rules in place. This puts it on Trump to either agree to follow the rules, or admit that he cannot.