Should Charles Manson have been found guilty?

I never would have thought that this was a controversial topic, but over in this thread (which concerns the death of Vincent Bugliosi, who obtained a conviction against Charles Manson and his followers for the brutal murder of Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Wojciech Frykowski, Abigail Folger, Steven Parent, Leno LaBiance, and Rosemary LaBianca), Handsomeharry and Tapu both advanced the position that Manson wasn’t really a ringleader for the crimes, and was essentially “framed” by the prosecutor.

Harry, referencing an unnamed website he read, claims that Manson sent his followers over to Tate’s house (which had previously been rented by Terry Melcher, a record producer who failed to fulfill his promise to Manson to record his music) to “either kick his ass/rob him, so they’d have dope money, or something”, but hadn’t intended for them to commit heinous murder. In Harry’s words, he was “framed”.

Tapu, citing her own blog (located here), says that Manson was a “Boogeyman” that “was created by the U.S. establishment of the 60s-70s, using the powerful and rising tool of media” to “frighten the masses and turn them against the counter-culture.” In this telling, Manson doesn’t really deserve to be in prison (“Charlie may deserve to be in prison (thought I don’t know what for by now…)”), and Tex Watson (one of the members of the Family, and a participant in the killings) is the real mastermind behind the crimes. Manson is merely “a clown” who’s only involvement is an instruction to the killers to “do something witchy” before they embarked on their murderous spree.

I’m frankly shocked by these arguments. All I can find online, in “support” of Manson’s innocence, are some wacko websites that come from very questionable sources (such as the girl, nicknamed “Star”, who had planned on marrying Manson a few years ago).

Now, admittedly, the real information relating to the murders is quite bizarre. Manson was preaching about “Helter Skelter”, which was a race war between Blacks and whites, which would result in Black people winning. Once victorious, though, these Black people would turn to Manson to lead them (since, in his racist mind, they were Black and therefore incapable of leading themselves). To survive the race war, the Family would have to hide out underground in the desert, in some sort of heavenly paradise (where, for example, a bunch of different types of fruit would all grow on the same tree).

The murders were intended to start this race war, since Black people weren’t getting the message (despite Beatles songs like “Blackbird” and, naturally, “Helter Skelter”, which either predicted, or called for, the start of the war). Basically, Manson wanted some horrible deaths of wealthy establishment types to be blamed on Black people (such as the Black Panthers), thereby starting the riots that would lead to his rule.

And, it is also true that Manson didn’t kill any of the victims himself. He sent his followers to the Tate house; after the brutal slaying, he brought them to the LaBiance house the next night, where he took it upon himself to tie up the victims before leaving his followers to commit the murders.

I agree, then, that Manson’s motives were completely irrational and his involvement was really like that of a Mafia Don who kept his distance from the dirty work. But, under the law, his leading a conspiracy to commit murder makes him directly culpable, and there is no obligation for a motive to be proven in order for a conviction to occur. The strange circumstances of the case by no means exonerate this horrible person, and he deserves all of the punishment he received (if not more so; he was actually sentenced to death, and this is one of the rare times when I am disappointed that a death sentence was commuted).

Do you believe that he is not responsible, or that his role was overblown? I can’t believe anybody would think so, but posts on the Dope tell me otherwise.

Is there any question, at all, that the murders would not have taken place had Manson not indoctrinated, then “aimed” his followers? Any notion that the victims somehow set themselves up for attack or robbery that went bad? Any suggestion that the bloody-handed killers would have committed these crimes had they not be indoctrinated in Manson’s mindset and told to?

Also, IIRC, Manson himself tied up the LaBiancas, then left them to the killers. Pretty hard to make a case for “Whoa, children, you really misunderstood the teachings!”

ETA: It’s more or less hearsay, but Manson also attempted to murder someone at a stoplight just before the LaBianca killings - according to testimony, he jumped out of the car to shoot the driver of the car next to them, but the light changed and the car zoomed away. He was out to prove he, too, would kill for the cause, IIRC. (And I wonder if that person ever had the slightest idea…)

Eh, I just responded to some of this on the seminal thread linked in the OP.

I want to make it clear that I’m not saying “Charlie is innocent” or anything like that. I don’t know. But I am open to the idea that the myth that pertains now about the Manson Family is just that–part myth.

To answer the OP’s question, I heartily believe Manson was responsible, and his role was not overblown.

Bugliosi did a masterful job at discerning the bizarre reasoning of Helter Skelter, but let’s not stop there. If you read Manson In His Own Words, you’ll have an even better understanding of the man.

You’ll see him as much more of a three dimensional character, not a clown (and not sympathetic, either). He talks about his life growing up, being in foster homes, institutions, being raped, committing burglaries and other crimes, on up through the murders.

It doesn’t excuse anything about him, but it goes farther to explain him than you might know otherwise. For instance, he claims he and another person (unnamed) went to the Tate house right after the murders, before the housekeeper arrived and discovered the bodies.

He claims that he and his accomplice were the ones who planted the eyeglasses in the Tate living room as a false clue. Whether that’s true or not, it’s the only explanation I’ve ever come across in dealing with those glasses. Manson claimed in the book they were used to start fires on the ranch, as you would by using a magnifying glass.

If he were not responsible, and was just a nice guy being framed, why wouldn’t he have called the police and gotten Tex and the girls arrested? Manson was a criminal, and probably would’ve been charged with auto theft (he was), and other relatively minor crimes, but nothing that would’ve given him the death penalty.

Everything he said blamed someone else or society for what he’d become. He never took any responsibility for his own actions, so while he didn’t pull the trigger, hit anyone over the head, or stab Sharon Tate himself, he set himself up as the leader and directed the whole thing.

Don’t just take Bugliosi’s word for it - although he was correct, and the first to really air the dirty laundry – it’s worth looking at other sources, like Ed Sanders’ book “The Family,” or even Atkins’ quickie book on the murders.

What a load of horseshit. Manson was anti-social, and batshit crazy, but he wasn’t legally insane. Manson sent his followers out to murder people. People died. Manson didn’t actually murder anyone. He just ordered their murders. Prison for life, is too good for him, but that’s the harshest possible penalty under the law.

Other members of Manson’s cult willingly participated in the murders. That doesn’t mean Manson shouldn’t spend the rest of his life in prison.

Admit no possibilities of subtlety in this clearly objective perspective. Which you get from…? Wait, Bugliosi’s book and mainstream media? You may be swallowing horseshit, yourself.

IIRC, there were other witness accounts of former members and hangers-on, that portray Manson as the undisputed ring leader.

Even if true, Manson would be still be guilty of multiple felony murders. If he directed them to do a criminal act, he is responsible for the murders even if he did not specifically intend them.

Defending Charles M. Manson as the victim of hysteria and a frame-up. Ohhh-kayyyy.

Well, you’ve convinced me. :rolleyes: Charles Milles Manson was a poor, misunderstood, unloved, psychopathic personality, who was steamrolled into prison by “the Man”. :smack:

Have you ever heard of the color gray? I’m saying here, and in my blog, that you might want to step back and take another look at all that’s been fed to you over the past 5 decades. About anything and anyone. Not just Manson–though it is an obvious example.

Is that what this is about? You’re trying to build a following for your blog?

Where did you come up with that? Get back to the real issue brought up here.

Ah, yes, the EVERYTHING ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING is a lie position.The only truth is that if it comes from an established source, it’s a lie. (Corollary: If it comes from under a rock on the farm of some fruitcake with no credentials of any kind, it’s gospel.)

Yeah, he deserved to be convicted of the murders.

Guilty guilty guilty.

Hey, cool. No need to question the mainstream story. I have no particular agenda here. My agenda is broader–to question everything. Even something so “universally accepted” as the official account of the Manson Family murders.

You guys are so sure, you must be right.

Didn’t Manson murder a musician named Gary Hinman? Tate-Labianca were not the only events.
I think he did it with a sword. So I’m saying that Charlie is guilty of all counts. He let his people know what was expected by his own actions

What, specifically, do you question about the generally accepted story of Manson? It’s good to be skeptical, but not to ignore the well established and documented narrative. Do you step back and take another look at the moon landing?

As the saying goes, “Keep an open mind but not so open that your brains fall out.”

…and the other corollary is that if you point to the recorded facts, you’re just an ignorant puppet of the mythmakers.

I’d be interested in your blogs documenting the railroading of Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, Corona and that Hitler guy, too. Got some URLs for us?