Should Donald Trump be convicted & removed for sending Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine?

This is prompted by a line of posts in the thread, “[THREAD=888543]The Trump Impeachment Trial[/THREAD]”. Should President Trump be convicted and removed for sending Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine?

I include as premises to this debate the assumptions that Mr. Trump sent Mr. Giuliani to Ukraine, and that Mr. Trump has been specifically impeached for doing so. Please don’t nitpick over what the actual articles of impeachment say.

Also, please do not make this a debate over the current partisan makeup of the Senate. This is a should question, not a would question; besides, we are in Great Debates, not Politics & Elections. If you must approach this debate as a would question, assume that all of the Senators vote their conscience and all of them and their constituents share your ideology.

~Max

I have mixed feelings about that letter and Mr. Giuliani in general. I have already admitted and will continue to concede, sending the President’s lawyer in a personal capacity to conduct what is effectively foreign policy, without letting the rest of the government know, is to invite confusion and inefficiency. Not to mention that the lawyer would effectively be sandbagging the foreign government (that is how I am used to seeing the verb “sandbag”, as a synonym for misrepresentation).

But the question here is not whether it is effective or even the right thing to do, it is whether it is a high crime or misdemeanor for the President to send a personal lawyer instead of a properly ordained official like a special envoy.

My short argument is that both the President and Mr. Giuliani could possibly violate the Logan Act, which is a high misdemeanor and therefore an impeachable and removable offense. But to answer the topic question, I would need more information and evidence.

The Logan Act is an eighteenth-century law that came out of the XYZ affair, and it basically says private citizens can’t go out and (directly or indirectly) influence foreign governments that the United States has a controversy with. So if Mr. Giuliani was a private lawyer representing a private citizen, communicating with a foreign government that the United States had a dispute with (the military aid, corruption, what have you), that could be illegal under the Logan Act, both for Mr. Giuliani and his client.

Even better, the Logan Act is a criminal law - the exact wordage in 1799 was “shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor”. I will concede that a Logan Act violation, if you can make it stick, would be impeachable. The Logan Act is codified as 18 U.S.C. § 953, and reproduced in the spoiler below:

[SPOILER]Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.[/SPOILER]

The rationale of that act, as I understand it, stems from the President’s exclusive power to negotiate treaties and the government’s inherent power to regulate foreign intercourse. But would it really be a violation if the President himself, in personal and unofficial capacity, is the citizen charged with a Logan Act violation? Are we to draw a distinction between the President and Mr. Donald Trump? Is it possible for Mr. Donald Trump to perform some act without the President’s authority? I could see that question going both ways, but I’m leaning heavily towards yes, because the President doesn’t have the authority to do whatever he wants.

Reality check 1: did Mr. Donald Trump send a personal agent to Ukraine, with the intent of “meddling in an investigation” without the authority of President Trump?

Apparently Mr. Trump denies having directed Mr. Giuliani to do something, it says so right in your cite. We would need to overcome that denial first - which I have done here by writing the assumption into the original post.

Mr. Giuliani’s public remarks strongly suggest that the letter was referencing the investigations into Biden/Burisma and the DNC/Crowdstrike, but it is not a fact and in my idea of a trial Mr. Trump would have the opportunity to dispute that.

Reality check 2: Was the intent to meddle an intent to defeat some measure of the United States? Otherwise, was the investigation being meddled in is a dispute or controversy with the United States?

I have read that the phrase “to defeat the measures of the United States” may be vague enough to be unconstitutional. I actually have no idea what it means if not some publicly announced plans by U.S. officials that represent the United States as a nation. So if the President had publicly announced that the United States was opening an investigation into some airline crash in Ukraine, then Mr. Trump privately sent Mr. Giuliani to pressure Ukraine not to investigate the crash, that would meet my idea of intent to defeat the measures of the United States, despite Mr. Trump and the President being the same person. I doubt something similar holds with either Biden/Burisma or the DNC/Crowdstrike. If anything, the President in his official capacity went on television to push for the investigation of the Bidens.

In the alternative we have the question of whether either investigation is “a dispute or controversy with the United States”. Here I think there might be some room for an affirmative answer, at least on the DNC/Crowdstrike investigation, because the intelligence community has taken the position that Ukraine was not involved with the hacking of the DNC. But on the other hand, the intelligence community is wholly subservient to the President when it comes to foreign affairs, because they are properly his advisors in that field. So if there were some controversy between an ex-prosecutor and the U.S. government, or between Ukrainians and the U.S. government, then the answer to reality check #2 might be yes.

Reality check #3: were Mr. Giuliani’s actions in Ukraine intended to obtain redress for an injury done to his client, Mr. Donald Trump?

The Logan Act has an exception that would come in to play if Mr. Giuliani claims he was meddling in Ukraine for redress of an injury done to his client, Mr. Donald Trump. Any such affirmative defense would need to be overcome.

So where I have left room for Mr. Trump to defend himself, I would need more evidence or information before deciding whether the President should be convicted and removed for sending Mr. Giuliani to Ukraine.

~Max

I think a better question would be, Should congress be allowed to investigate the actions of a president who sends his personal lawyer to Ukraine?

And before we get any deeper into the weeds, does “envoy” have a specific definition. Is it a very flexible condition, whereby the same envoy may act as an official representative, then change his tie and act as a personal representative?

There is historic president of non-nefarious type for the President to appoint secret diplomats.

I have no complaint against it, as a default.

But like all Presidential powers, her powers have few limits so long as they serve the purpose of the American people and the Constitution. But no powers under corrupt purpose are given by the Constitution. For her own sake, the President can do very little beyond campaign.

Like Harry Hopkins, he was a special envoy. If I have to provide a definition, a special envoy is someone without an official post established by law, who is officially representing the United States abroad as appointed by the President and/or Secretary of State. They do not necessarily have to be confirmed by the Senate, they do not necessarily have to get paid, and their position does not necessarily have to last for any definite period of time - but I will say mere minutes or hours is too short.

~Max

He should be convicted and removed for using the power of his office to ask a foreign govt. to investigate an American. Trump doesn’t realize it, but his oath is to Americans.
Good to see another Trump impeachment thread.

That’s a good way of saying it.

It is entirely possible to have a private citizen perform some type of limited duty to assist a President. It is possible that those duties exceed the limited powers that should be authorized for that person. Like, delivering a message and serving as a conduit for backchannel communications? Sure. Acting as a shadow ambassador? That’s too far.

Setting aside the content of the issues Rudy worked on, the situation is puzzling. He claimed to be working only for Trump the individual, not the President. But his portfolio certainly crossed over into official matters.

Lacking any clarification of what the fucking fuck was going on, I’m inclined to conclude that Trump acted improperly WRT having Rudy so deeply involved in government-to-government matters. But that by itself, I wouldn’t say is impeachable.

But adding in the content of those matters - starting an ersatz investigation for clearly political purposes - then we are deep into impeachment territory. It is just not acceptable for the President to set up shadow government efforts at odds with official channels (which seem to have a veneer of trying to hide them behind attorney client privilege).

Sending this off to the Politics and Elections forum.

Mr. Prosecutor, could you please hold your left hand up when talking about “Donald J. Trump, the President” and hold your right hand up when talking about “Donald J. Trump, private citizen.”

Didn’t Clinton sent Jimmy Carter and Jesse Jackson on overseas missions? How is that different? If you say that the difference is that these were not for corrupt purposes then we are right back where we are now.

This makes sense… in the way that shooting a deer with a rifle is basically the same thing as shooting a person with a rifle.

Why? Because corrupt motive? If so, we are back at the beginning.

The Logan Act forbids unauthorized citizens from acting diplomatically in other countries. I don’t know see you could convict a President, who is essentially the one-stop-authorization-shop for the diplomacy of the US, for violating it.

I mean, what is the difference between taking $20 from your wife’s purse because you forgot to go to the ATM to get lunch money; and pickpocketing $20 from a guy on the subway because you need heroin? Corrupt motive? I guess we are back at the beginning.

Would you kindly state what you are getting at instead of speaking in code?

The OP is about whether it is a violation of the Logan Act for Trump to send Rudy to the Ukraine. I think clearly not. But you say this is different than Clinton sending Jesse Jackson overseas. Why is that?

I’m not seeing it that way. If Trump publicly announces an investigation into an airline crash, but is secretly trying to stop the investigation on the DL, then that overall is the policy of the United States. Maybe you could argue that it is unseemly to openly mislead the American or Ukrainian people or that it is a bad policy, but Trump cannot possibly be guilty of attempting to frustrate his own efforts.

And I’m not understanding this “Trump the President” v. “Trump the Citizen” distinction. He is always Trump the President. Does he have to wear a special sash with “The Prez” on it or something to be President?

If you scroll up just a few posts, I gave my reasons.

But also, let’s remember that Rudy wrote to Zelensky stating that he was acting as the private attorney for the personal affairs of Trump, not in his capacity as President. Right there you have several key differences with Carter and Jackson.

I understand it, and it seems clear that Rudy understands it. I think anyone in public service understands that there is a different relationship between a person’s private actions and public actions. Just for one example, if a government employee gives a campaign contribution to their favored candidate, that is a private matter and it cannot be mixed with one’s obligations at work. Does that help?

The difference between Trump the President and Trump the private citizen is also probably important to Trump in terms of expanding his ability to clamp down on people testifying against him. Any of his closest advisors , like his Chief of Staff or Press Secretary or the Cabinet can be barred from testifying under Executive Privilege. His private attorney can’t testify against him because of attorney-client privilege. but Trump couldn’t just, say, appoint Giuliani as White House Counsel, because neither of the two apply to that position.

I think the more important question is, what will Bill Barr and Trump do to those who tried to upend them.

If you’re the whistle blower, you’d be understandably concerned for wondering whether Bill Barr might not try to use federal prosecutors to cook up charges on you.

If you’re Lev Parnas, you’d be justified in being scared about spending time in a federal prison.

If you’re Michael Cohen, you could be forgiven for wondering whether you’ll make it out of prison alive.

Please note for all participants that Donald Trump is not being impeached and removed for “Sending Rudy to Ukraine.”

Since the question is not about the current articles of impeachment, but refers to an alternative reality, is “politics and elections” the proper forum for this discussion? Isn’t it more “Great Debates”?