He and everyone else seems to reference Pierce, but since that was about public vs private schools and not home schooling, I’m not sure I see how this holds. Either way, I’ll agree to not continue this hijack unless you wish to claim that Troxel allows people to ignore their childrens’ education completely, which you haven’t appeared to do.
I just can’t get over people like this, and here’s why: How do they expect those women to support their children if their husbands died, or became disabled?
I just can’t get over people like this, and here’s why: How do they expect those women to support their children if their husbands died, or became disabled?
or, for that matter, if the HUSBAND decides he wants to leave?
(Oh, wait, that was because she couldn’t keep him happy, blah blah blah)
I’m generally against homeschooling since every kid I known who’s gone through it has been weird even much later in life. Further my sister’s kids were home schooled are crazy behind mine at the same age. Her eldest did ok but the second oldest can read entering first grade and the youngest can’t dress himself at 4. I think the busier she got the more she let the home schooling slide. Now that her oldest is in third grade my sister finally gave up because the math was too hard for her.
That being said I’m against state intervention in general.
What you’re proposing Ultra is basically once a home schooled kid fails the GRE then we lock the parents up for abuse and given that we would then know they were abused for 18 years it should probably be a life sentence. Possibly at 18 we make every new adult take a test in the country. The problem here is that first we’d have a bunch of adults that no longer had parents and then we would have to educate them to the minimum standard.
That seems like a sub-optimal way to do it both for the parents and the children. An annual test for all children seems more fair and would serve the purpose of allowing the DOE to evaluate the education level of the country. We could target problem schools, school districts, or home schools and either get them the help they need or remove the children prior to too much damage being done to them.
The people that believe these things would have no problem answering your questions.
The answer to your first question is “Trust in God and He will provide.”
The answer to your second question is “If you had been a better wife, he would have stayed.”
Why would you arrest the parents if the child fails the GRE? Teachers or principals or the school board don’t get arrested when they fail to properly educate children.
Ok, lets say we do require annual testing for homeschoolers. And if they fall short they be required to put their kids in a regular school.
Believe it or not I’m ok with that. Like others I dont want to hear about kids falling thru the cracks and not getting an education.
But ONLY if regular kids in the public schools also are required to take the same tests AND they can be held back in grade if they fail AND if many kids in such a school fail the school can get into trouble.
Would that be ok?
Thing is I can quote just as many kids who went to public schools and had just as bad outcomes.
For example this is the last weeks of school for some kids. Many are failing because they havent done a lick of schoolwork either before or after quarantine.
BUT, now, there parents are calling up the school asking how their kids can avoid an F? Now the supposed “seniors” find themselves short on credits. I’m not talking 1 or 2 but half the class has F’s. And thats in an easy, watered down curriculum.
What they do come to school they always are roaming the halls, skipping class, causing fights, arguing with teachers, etc…
And quite frankly this is typical school for I’d bet about a quarter of American schools.
How is that better than the small percentage of the 3% of kids who are homeschooled?
Here’s the American Bar Association’s take on the current status of the “right to education” concept in the various states. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which the US voted to approve in the UN, although AFAICT that isn’t considered in US jurisprudence to obligate the US to treat its provisions as law) states that
Well you can do what you want and she can write papers the way she wants but I still feel one should do a little hands on investigation of the topic outside of just reading papers. To me “anecdotes” is part of research.
But then I’m more a hands on person. Sure when I fix or make something I look it up first but then I apply my knowledge in my work.
She is an academic. She writes papers for a living. “Publish or Perish” in her world. She shouldnt be looked at as an “expert” or to have influence in law of public policy.
I repeat my question to you from an earlier post:
Taxpayer-funded professional education, like taxpayer-funded professional medical care, is provided for children by society precisely because we can’t take it for granted that parents in general are capable of performing these specialized services on their own.
Sure, most parents can and do successfully teach their children lots of useful things, just as most parents can and do successfully handle innumerable minor medical problems (scrapes, rashes, digestive upsets etc.) in their children. But that doesn’t mean that we should automatically grant parents the authority to be their children’s sole healthcare providers, or their sole educators, if we have no idea whether they’re adequately qualified to take on that job.
:dubious: You seem to be unaware that Dr. Bartholet is a lawyer who served for years as staff counsel for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, helped found and for years directed the public-interest Legal Action Center in NYC, and is a founder and director of Harvard’s Child Advocacy Program, whose mission is precisely to protect the interests of children in “the world of policy and practice” as well as via training law students in the relevant issues.
It is blindingly obvious that Dr. Bartholet knows at least several orders of magnitude more than you do about all aspects of “law of public policy” pertaining to children’s education and the defense of children’s rights. For you to disparage her qualifications, or try to deny her status as an expert in this area, doesn’t demonstrate anything but your own ignorance and lack of competence to make such judgements.
I’m not sure if any of you have heard of that kid in India who predicted the coronavirus pandemic back in August 2019. He’s gained quite a lot of attention because of that
and when I started to check out more of his channel, I found out he was homeschooled, his younger sister also. They are both very bright and lovely human beings. You may
have your own judgments on them but the overall consensus from their feedback is that people think these kids are good for their country/world and we need more children to be like them.
Here’s a specific video of the mother explaining why she decided to homeschool her kids…very good answer:
one great point I wanted to mention was the part when she explains that on a written test, one of the questions was to choose 1 of 2 possible answers: Is your face circle or square? He X'd out both those boxes and put in his answer as Oval. The teacher put a giant red X on it and failed him. The mother says 'so you don't want my child to be able to think?' ...the school basically only cares if you follow the rules and choose the options they give you. This immediately points out one of the flaws of today's school system. Your ability to be obedient and follow rules supercedes your competency level and ability to think. That's why many geniuses have to do things "outside of the box" to get it done in this world.There was also a story about Greg Smith, the 10 year old boy who went to College.
When asked by Oprah what was it that his parents did to help him develop so fast or become so smart…she thought maybe they used flash cards lol. He said, the biggest thing was that they ‘facilitated my needs’. Schools are systematic and meant to educate a large number of people over a generalized approach and curriculum. While there are many great things about the school system, one of it’s weaknesses is the ability to meet the needs of the individual. They do not specialize or cater to each unique individual’s specific needs. It was not meant to do that. Of course, we are heading into times where we can do it now and soon, that’s how everyone will be educated.
Given that there are about twenty times more public-schooled than homeschooled children in the US, the fact that you’re claiming “just as many” failure stories about public schools as aruvqan claimed about homeschooling makes the performance of homeschooling look even worse.
You argue that homeschooling produces “just as many” abysmal failures, in absolute numbers, as public schooling with only five percent as many kids? :dubious: Not impressive.
(See, Urbanredneck, this is one reason why in responsible social-science research, comparing meaningful quantitative studies is considered much more valid and informative than just throwing around anecdotes of your own personal experience. Neither your nor aruvqan’s personal-experience anecdotes provide jack-shit in the way of reliable information about how successful homeschooling is overall.)
IMO, absolutely. I’m all for transparency and accountability in all forms of education.
Likewise, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to require all people tasked with children’s basic education, whether they’re professional schoolteachers or homeschooling parents, to meet some kind of qualifications for doing that job before we just let them go at it. I’m not saying that homeschooling parents should have to obtain official teacher certification, but they ought to provide some evidence of their ability to do the job beyond merely saying “I’ve decided to homeschool, bye-bye educational accountability”.
I think there is a difference between general education and education that requires a certain accountability of technical and expertise accreditation.
For example, you wouldn’t want a self-taught uncertified builder making buildings
and bridges for you. In these sort of tasks, you should definitely have to receive
qualifications and testing to prove your competency is more than sufficient to meet the safety standards.
But I don’t think you need accountability and testing if you want to teach your kids about animals, how to do paper mache, read books, how to play musical instruments, or draw etc. There are many things you can learn and be educated in that shouldn’t require these kinds of standardized tests to be accountable.
We have standardized testings for accountability in things like driver’s license, first aid … but we don’t have it for telling people how to live life, how to enjoy themselves…even how to parent…there are no tests that tell you if you are able or unable to do such things per se (maybe there should be for parenting?).
All right…
ISTM that many people’s positions at least in this thread are hard locked and entrenched. Which is a pity because this could have been a good discussion and critique of where does that professor gets things right or wrong.
It is curious, how some of the arguers here seem to themselves have met or known of no succesful homeschooler, ever, and at the same time how utter is the incredulity of those on the other side about that.
That said…
My position is as with everything that is a right: it is not absolutely unrestricted or unlimited. And by this I mean both the human right to reach adulthood enabled to function well in the greater society and economy as a free and independent person, and the human right to be be brought up being cared for and protected and given good life value lessons by your family.
And yes, notice the way I word it they are the child’s rights, not the parent’s. To me, a good education and good family upbringing includes ending up with an adult who is ready to go his or her own way, in terms of health, formal knowledge and moral compass. Even if that way is not the parent’s. Or if it is, because it is so *freely *chosen in an informed decision.
But again, no right is 100% absolute and unrestricted. You can’t “pursue happiness” at the expense of abusing others, liberty is not license to act without regard for anyone else. You are free to practice your religion but not if it involves human sacrifice or temple prostitution, and free to keep and bear arms but I suggest you don’t raise your gat to the ready in the general direction of the police. You are free to travel but actually operating a motor vehicle in a public road means getting a permit; you have a right to vote, once per election, in your precinct of residence, IF you comply with the requirements. Etc.
So should alternatives to public education exist? Of course. Should alternatives to organized institutional education exist? Heck yeah. Should homeschooling exist? Yes.
Should it be “no questions asked, period?” No, but making people create a replica of the public school inside their house is impractical. It could rather be that at the point where their age cohort would reach Grade, Middle and High School completion, have the homestudents submit to the same standardized test as schoolgoers. Sweeten the pot, make it so that satisfactory progress* by the general standard* confers some benefit.
No, I don’t think making parents prove that they are trained to certified teacher standards would fly. However… those pre-packaged curricula and the organized schooling cooperative templates? DO vet those, at least to prevent fly-by-nights ripping off the parents. It doesn’t even have to be the state, it can even be an association of private education that can look at it and say “ok, not a ripoff”.
More important to me, though, make it perfectly clear and don’t back down on that the standardized tests and college or vo/tech school admissions standards will NOT be “adjusted”. That nobody will be able to sue the State University to just waive the requirement for Intro to American History because the course does not give the history THEY taught. Young Earth Creationist, Flat Earther? You can’t waive the Physics or Bio requirements. Etc.
(and of course… unvaccinated? You. Are. Not. Entering. This. School.)
Sure, but what I said was “tasked with children’s basic education”. Meaning, the people who are responsible for providing the subject-matter of compulsory education: i.e., the knowledge and skills that you need to demonstrate to get promoted into the next grade, and ultimately to get your high school diploma.
I’m not arguing that parents should have to demonstrate any kind of official qualification in order to teach kids hobbies or games, early-childhood skills like reading and counting, or other everyday-type activities. But if you’re setting yourself up as the sole provider of the years of official essential schooling that your kids are legally required to obtain, then you really ought to be able to show that you’re up to the job.
I do not have time to look it up now but, IIRC, homeschooling stats are pretty good and, overall, those students seem to do better on tests than kids in other schooling situations.
Doubtless you can find exceptions…there always are some, but overall they do well. And I say that as someone who finds the whole notion super creepy.
I will say I think part of being in school is the socialization aspect. And that can be brutal but that is part of what helps us once we are in the real world. We need that thicker skin to navigate many day-to-day things. Anecdoatal but my company hired a guy who was homeschooled. Clearly he was a bright, intelligent guy. Quite possibly the smartest person in the office (certainly up there). His social skills were in the basement though. Just terrible. He tried but never fit in which ultimately led to his dismissal. To be sure some people who go to public schools end up the same way but I have that nagging feeling that if this guy had been able to socialize more when growing up this would not have been a problem. But yeah…one personal experience is not a good data point.
I know some homeschooling parents do make sure their kid gets plenty of socialization. It can certainly be done if they want to.
See post #43, and the often-linked Bartholet article, for reasons to be cautious about assuming that test results for the subset of homeschoolers who choose to participate in standardized testing are representative of the “overall” performance of homeschooled students as a whole.
I dont wish to quote all of your writing just to say I agree with most of it.
I am ok with having some sort of homeschooling oversite. Parents should be required to show things like curriculum to some authority (not sure who but I think its their local school districts officials). I am also ok with annual testing PROVIDED they also test the public school kids and if the homeschool parents can be held accountable, so should parents and schools of regular kids.
As I said earlier this is technically the last week of school in our area. Dozens of kids at my wifes schools have failing grades because they refused to do any work or even attend classes and now are reaching out to the teachers for help. The schools often pencil whip their grades so they can move on. I feel that if they were forced to pass an annual test that would not happen (not that their have been many cases of cheating on standardized tests).