what oversight should home schools have?

A thread was high jacked and started discussing this issue. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145264&perpage=50&pagenumber=1) But I find it interesting and want to give it some space for discussion.

More and more families are homeschooling now. About 1.5 MILLION children are now homeschooled in the US. And this phenominon is expected to grow.

"Homeschooling in Pennsylvania has the toughest regulations in the country. Parents must send a notarized affidavit to the state each year that they are teaching their children. Achievement tests are required, students get yearly evaluations by a certified teacher or psychologist and certain class subjects are mandatory.

Delaware is different. Parents simply need to notify the Department of Education and get direction from a homeschool association or their local school district.

In New Jersey there is virtually no regulation. You don’t even need to notify your child’s school that you’re taking them out of class. " (http://www.nbc10.com/news/1699732/detail.html)

So what is appropriate? Yearly tests? Home inspections? Curriculum evaluations? No regulations?

What oversight there is obviously varies considerably. In Mississippi, where I live now, the policy must be much like New Jersey’s. There’s a fellow at my work who “home-schools” his 15-year-old step-daughter. Actually, the daughter is a de facto dropout, as my co-worker jokes now and then about getting over on the home-schooling system. His step-daughter rats the streets all day and definitely does little if anything in the way of course work.

Well, since it is a fairly recent phenomenon (at least in terms of large numbers of children) I would think that the current hodge-podge of differing regulations ought to be left alone until we see that one or another set of rules is clearly shortchanging the children. (It would be interesting, for example, to discover the rate of college admittance and college graduation for home-schooled kids in New Jersey.)

The last statement in your NBC link is the point that homeschooling organizations enjoy publishing. I think it is quite possibly true, although I still think it would be interesting to find out how that is determined (if only college-bound volunteers are represented in the tests, that just might skew the results) and whether that level of competence is true in all locations or only in locations where there are or are not burdensome regulations.

Autz said, “In New Jersey there is virtually no regulation. You don’t even need to notify your child’s school that you’re taking them out of class.”

How does a kid get a diploma in this case? Would that diploma be recognized at any college in the nation? How do you present transcripts to the colleges?

By the way, I think home schooling is great if done correctly. I don’t see how it could be done correctly in this case, but maybe someone can explain it to me.

I guess the question is how to reach a balance.

Society has a great interest in insuring children are educated. But we also have agreed that what families do in the home (within reason) is their own business.

The other question that was raised in the other thread has to do with families who teach their children non-standard ideas. For example, should the orthodox Christian children have to learn that evolution is true?

How much freedom should parents have in what they teach their children?

As a homeschooling parent, I believe parents should have a good deal of freedom in what they teach their children.

The majority of parents who homeschool are quite interested in ensuring their children learn skills that will help them throughout their lives. Many of those skills can’t be measured by tests administered to publicly-schooled kids. As a person who was your straight-A, good kid throughout public school, I can tell you I have retained very little of the facts I was required to memorize in order to pass tests and obtain my diploma – I retained and regurgitated the facts on cue, then they were generally meaningless to me and, thus, not retained. I am not an oddity among homeschooling parents, although I’m sure there are plenty who retained more of those facts than I did because they found them more interesting than I did.

The skills I learned when I began working (in high school) are the skills that have helped me since graduating high school. What math I didn’t retain, I relearned and I have since retained because it’s necessary for my job. Ditto for grammar, history, etc. There are far too many things I was never taught in public school that I learned after I graduated and began supporting myself (balancing a checkbook, dealing politely and maturely with the public from a customer service standpoint, dealing with the politics of working within a company, etc.). Obtaining a high school diploma does not necessarily mean one is capable of functioning, and being a benefit to, society.

Learning “necessary school stuff” (math, grammar, history, etc.) can be done in far more interesting ways than reading school textbooks and memorizing things for the sole purpose of passing a test. Things that are learned because you’re really interested in them are things that tend to be retained and expanded upon.

As you can probably guess, I dislike the idea of homeschooling families being overseen. It would probably be beneficial for the very small percentage of homeschooling parents who have no true interest in ensuring their kids are learning, but I don’t want to be subjected to something that I know is completely unnecessary for my family and the other families I know who homeschool, because we homeschool so that our children WILL learn. There is no doubt in my mind my homeschooled child will have a more well-rounded, more enjoyable education than his publicly-schooled stepbrother. His stepbrother . . . who has been advanced from grade to grade, all the way to the 10th grade, with spelling, math, grammar, reading, and handwriting skills equivalent to that of a 4th or 5th grader (and he’s in a decent public school). I will be amazed if he passes the test necessary to graduate from high school. And if he does, he will not be prepared to be a “functioning member of society” because he hasn’t learned the skills necessary to support himself. So, with public schools being overseen, there are still plenty of publicly-schooled kids who graduate who are fairly inept and unable to do much of anything with their diplomas. Why would people think overseeing homeschooling families would be any different? The people that think that are probably, generally, not overly familiar with homeschooling or with a variety of homeschooling families.

EchoKitty, there are distance-learning programs available to homeschoolers that will provide them with a diploma. A GED is also an option. There are a number of colleges (even “good,” recognizable colleges) that accept homeschoolers without a diploma. Homeschoolers can take the SAT, just as publicly-schooled kids can. “Transcripts” can be in the form other than those issued by public schools.

For people who are truly interested in learning more about homeschooling, even if you don’t plan to homeschool your kids (or if you don’t have kids), there are a multitude of books and websites out there that address the common, basic questions and concerns, as well as the more involved questions and concerns.

I homeschool, and I don’t believe the government has any place in determining the education of my children. That said, I am going to do my darndest to ensure my children recieve a great education. But schooling has little to do with education.

none

There should be no oversight.

I’ve seen too many “graduates” of the public school system display reading and writing skills that are completely inadequate.

I see no reason why the people who botched the public system should be allowed to further amaze us with their incompetency by screwing up another system.

I don’t have a problem with what the state of Maryland requires from us, as a homeschool family. We have a twice-yearly school board review, in which we show samples of our childrens’ work from each required subject. The reviewer uses these examples to ensure that our children are receiving an ‘adequate’ amount of instruction in each required class. However, even though I don’t have a problem with this, I think less oversight would be preferable. Everyone who objects to this idea says “but public schools are overseen”. There are some problems with this. In the first place, if I thought public school was the standard by which to measure, I’d have left my kids there! Also, the primary reason public schools are overseen is so that they can receive federal funding. If the government wants to start paying me to homeschool my children, then maybe they can get a little more demanding about overseeing our homeschool. As it stands, however, we neither ask for nor have been offered funding. We don’t get tax-exempt status, we can’t even use the Betty Crocker and Campbell’s soup labels! Since we don’t have the “perks” of being a school, we shouldn’t have the government burdens, either.

I think the case of the teenage dropout whose parents claim “homeschooling” is the exception to the rule. Homeschool parents, for the most part, are homeschooling because they aren’t happy with what public school was doing with their kids, and think they (the parents) can do a better job. Parents who don’t want to be troubled to actually teach their kids mostly don’t choose to homeschool, because they’d rather have the kids out of their hair for 6 hours a day, while they are in school. Actually, if you count all the homework public school gives out, the kids are really out of your hair for 8 hours a day.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I am NOT saying that anyone who sends their kids to public school is lazy!! Many kids thrive in public school, and homeschooling isn’t always an option even for parents who don’t like public school. I’m only refuting an argument that goes: “Yes, but what about the parents who claim to homeschool, but their kids sit around watching TV all day?” For the most part, it doesn’t happen!

Sorry this go so long!

Of course, the last line should read “sorry this got so long”. English really is my primary language :slight_smile:

Tell that to my neighbors. Her kids were constantly acting like hooligans in school, so she pulled them out and claimed to be homeschooling them (11 and 13). They just did not go to school, while she was out all day, and their place was almost a crackhouse. Her kids were juvenile delinquents who trashed their house and occasionally threw their cigarette butts in our yard. They eventually defaulted on their mortgage and are gone-thank god!

This is in Pennsylvania, btw.

I know a kid exactly like that who lives in Ohio.

His father claims to be ‘homeschooling’, but while Dad’s at work all day, the kid (16) is at home smoking pot or roaming around with his other ‘homeschooled’ friends.

Both Papa and Sonny are very proud of having ‘pulled one over’ on the school.

How about this issue:

Hypothetical Homeschooling Family are very religious fundamentalists in the Church of the Banana.

Their parents teach them the History of Banana, Geography of where Bananas are growns, and how to add and subtract bananas.

They tell their children the world began when bananas were domesticated (about 6,000 years ago). They teach them anyone who doesn’t eat bananas daily will die.

Should any attempt be made to teach these children scientific truth? Or at least force the parents to make their children aware that other people have different beliefs, and don’t worship bananas?

Should they be tested on World History, Algebra, or Chemistry, when their parents haven’t taught them about these subjects?

Autz, I wasn’t taught about different beliefs in public school, just about evolution. I think neither evolution nor creationism should be taught in public school – that should lie with the parents. Ideally, parents (whether their kids attend public or private school or are homeschooled) should teach about their own personal views, along with the various other views out there in this world. Using your example, if a child is taught by his/her parents to worship bananas, it won’t take long for that child to figure out there are other beliefs – unless they live in a bubble and are exposed to no one other than their family. (I know some uninformed people do believe all homeschooled kids live that way.) When kids hit a certain age (and that will vary from kid to kid), they can form their own opinions about how they think the world began. Just my opinion, of course.

No, kids shouldn’t be tested on subjects they haven’t been taught. If their career doesn’t utilize algebra or chemistry, why teach it to them? If they later want to pursue a career that requires knowledge of those subjects, they’ll learn it then. Homeschooled kids (well, motivated homeschooled kids, that is) will learn what they need to know to pursue something of interest to them. I do want my child to learn about world history, but not out of some boring (and sometimes inaccurate) school textbook . . . there are far more interesting ways to learn, and retain facts, about world history. I wouldn’t mind my child being tested when he hits grade-12 age, but I have no desire to have him tested before then. There are plenty of “what your child should know” type books and websites out there for homeschoolers, to allow them to benchmark against where public school kids are (or are supposed to be), IF that’s something the homeschooled parent wants to know.

I’m with norinew, if the government wants to give me federal funding or even a tax break for homeschooling, I’d be more open to oversight. As it is, I’ve made the choice to homeschool, at my own expense, and I don’t think the govt has the right to want to oversee whether I’m doing an “acceptable” job. (That would be just a bit too much of the pot calling the kettle black!) Fortunately, I live in a state that is very friendly to homeschoolers.

Unfortunately, the examples given of the “homeschooled” teens who do nothing constructive with their lives give homeschoolers a bad name. That would be like me applying Columbine High School to all high schools . . . not really fair to see all high schools through that experience, but the bad is what tends to stick in people’s minds, regardless of the topic. The parents and teens given as examples of homeschoolers who feel they’ve gotten one over on the system will be the ones to suffer in the long run, just like the kids who graduate public school unable to read and write adequately.

Note, I said in my post “for the most part”, I didn’t say that this never happens. Of course, there are also students in public schools (or enrolled in public schools), who don’t do any work and don’t learn anything.

Do you all think we can just skip the horror anecdotes of Bad Homeschoolers we have Known and Disapproved Of? For every little anecdote you drag in, homeschoolers can drag in bad school stories. And they’re not relevant in the slightest. The vast majority of homeschoolers are not like that.

Where I live there are a couple of ways to homeschool legally. One’s fairly onerous and expensive – distance ed with the education dept. Totally unsuitable for our needs. I’m home-educating, not interested in school at home to someone else’s agenda. The other way is to use a supervising teacher – I pay someone some money and they send me a scope for the primary years and we’re done. Most homeschoolers here are illegal.

I’m conflicted on contact with the state. As it stands now, I am totally on my own. I can do whatever I want and nobody comes near me. OTOH who am I to judge all the fundamentalist Christians who make up the bulk of the homeshcooling population? Sure their kids are getting some weird science but so are the kids who go to the Steiner schools.

Funding is another issue. NZ funds homeschoolers but you are more closely supervised there. You need to submit a detailed curriculum and you are inspected once a year or so.

What grots me off about both the Australian and NZ systems is the difficulty I have in having my kid assessed. I’d love to be able to opt in to have my kid tested at my local school when they’re doing tests.

I’m uncertain how much oversight home educators should have. The overwhelming majority do a good job and are dedicated. The Q system is undergoing an overhaul at the moment and I was talking to the guy at the ministry about it. He said they are trying to track the kids who are neither enrolled at school nor properly homeschooled. I don’t know that tightening requirements for the ‘proper’ home educators will do jackshit for helping those kids.

Reasonable oversight would keep these criticisms to a minimum.

Public school has some reasonable oversight. Standardized testing. Teacher observation. Doesn’t mean kids learn a darn thing, but its suppose to prevent teachers letting kids watch videos all day while they smoke in the teachers lounge. Seems reasonable that homeschool parents would have some oversight.

norinew’s situation seems reasonable. Come in twice a year and show that your kids have done something in the past six months. Seems reasonable that the board could be made up half of school district officicals and half of other homeschooling parents. The school district couldn’t torpedo homeschoolers out of spite.

Oversight wouldn’t stop all abuses, but it would stop the worst. And it seems a small price to pay for stopping the worst abuses of homeschooling - which should scare homeschoolers and non-homeschoolers alike.

I think if a large majority of people start homeschooling then there should be some regulations and oversight.
In a democracy, well a republic, the voting majority should be well schooled so that they can make thought out decisions.

Personally, I find many of the views of other people frightening, escpecially when it comes to the vitrol they toss at science and it’s theories and accomplishments that don’t fit the religion. What I find so scary is that so many people want to keep certain things from thier kids, teach that evil-ution is wrong, and then they grow up and vote for it to be abolished from all schools, and perhaps even go the slippery slope and fall back into the barbaric, superstitious world that helped raise us up.

America is doomed, another 100 years tops as a superpower, and all reason will fail, we shall fall back into the dark ages, replacing reason with superstition and nonesense, while the rest of the world advances. Then we shall be the 3rd world country. I see it oh so clearly. Let people teach their kids what they want… In a country built on Mob rule. yay.

Hopefully, in this scenario, the parents will also teach Banana Economics ( the minimum wage laws).

They should be tested on whatever is required to further pursue their education. If they plan on going to college they would still have to test for a high school diploma or it’s equivalency and fulfill whatever additional testing requirements are necessary for them to gain admittance to that institution of higher learning.