It’s not just debilitating injuries, it’s the repeated head blows that, to me, are the larger issue here.
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I listed a bunch of alternative activities that aren’t just walking on treadmills. The options are not full contact sports or nothing.
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And it’s not about reducing the opportunity for falling or accidents. Hell, I’m probably going to die falling down the stairs. Shit happens. It’s the everyday accumulation of brain injuries that makes CTE insidious.
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If you read that study I linked, you’d see that they looked at other activities in addition to football. Let me quote from the summary:
The key points here is that they are studying mild repetitive injuries and that the symptoms are predictably worse in players who played the longest.
The science here is evolving, as is all our understanding of the brain. This study examined players who played at the high school level or higher. Perhaps one day it will show that young players in the peewee leagues are not in danger. Maybe it will even show that swimmers are just as likely to develop brain damage as footballers.
But right now - today - we know football does cause the mild repetitive brain injuries that lead to CTE. Why let a child pursue football rather than any of dozens of activities which don’t cause regular brain injury?
May it come to pass. But the actual quote is nonsense. Most football fans never played more than touch or flag football. And it is the fans, not the players they need. Oh, they need players but if there only 10% as many available, they would still do fine.
You are smoking some sort of crack if you think line play isn’t as violent as the other positions.
Sure, a running back or a strong safety may have a full-tilt big hit every now and again, and running backs pretty much get tackled every time they get the ball.
But, for every play where a running back gets the ball, there are usually other plays where he runs a pass route into the flat, or trails out as a decoy on a QB keeper, or is the option back on an option play (midline or otherwise). These particular plays don’t represent hits.
By contrast, linemen hit EVERY play, and usually helmet-to-helmet as the ball is snapped. Pass plays are somewhat less forceful than run-blocking, if only because the goal for linemen on pass plays is to either sack the QB or obstruct the defense from doing so. Run plays are more force-on-force, in that the OL goal is to move the defensive guys out of the way, and the defensive guys’ job is to stand their ground and hopefully tackle the ball carrier.
Linemen don’t generally suffer the big hits where someone gets a running start, but they hit virtually EVERY play from scrimmage, which is why the CTE problems are heavily seen in linemen and linebackers, and to a much lesser degree in other positions.
That being said, I’m pretty sure that middle school and high school kids don’t really hit like the college or pro guys, at least not until they’re on the varsity team. That’s my recollection anyway; there weren’t many hard hits until I made the varsity team. Your son is FAR more likely to mess up a shoulder or blow a knee or something along those orthopedic lines than suffer potential brain damage from playing.
I miss-worded that. What I actually meant was, how many players have shown symptoms consistent with CTE?
According to the Wikipedia article on CTE, it can only be diagnosed post-mortem. The article goes on to say:
[QUOTE=Wikipedia]
Individuals with CTE may show symptoms of dementia, such as memory loss, aggression, confusion and depression, which generally appear years or many decades after the trauma.
[/QUOTE]
…which could characterize any teenage kid.
The point being, there is not a lot of hard data on CTE in younger players.
Actually linemen primarily are trying to push each other out of the way, there are not all the frequent helmet-to-helmet contacts either violent or otherwise. Probably the one exception is the center, who is particularly exposed because of how he starts the play. Linebackers != linemen, linebackers make lots of open field tackles, lineman rarely tackle. Tackling is where the most head contact and force exerted on the head happen.
IME, there is little hope of getting most 12-year-olds to think about life at 22. And I don’t really have a problem with that.
With a do-over of my own, I would without a doubt pass on football the next time around. Though it took me a fair amount of years to reach this conclusion. There’s a ton of games more gratifying and possible to play into middle age.
On the contrary, I think the authoritarian world of football would struggle mightily with a 90% reduction of its talent pool, especially at the higher levels of play. Major colleges and the pros depend heavily on a vast pool of easily replaceable players that work cheap and have little leverage. And even the middling football scholar, the one who attends games mostly to yell “Yahoo for our team” with his friends, can generally discern the skill differential between elite players and just a bunch of guys.
Back in the day (1985-1990) when I played various line positions, the standard action when the ball was snapped on running plays was to “fire out”, meaning that you sprung forward out of your stance with the intention of colliding with the defensive player (either directly across or 2-3 yards back) and ideally stopping his forward momentum and then trying to push him out of the way by getting under him and pushing upward so the running back could run downfield unmolested. He was trying to basically do the same thing as you, except after stopping your momentum, he was trying to get rid of you to tackle the running back.
That’s where the collisions happened every play- right after the ball was snapped, you fired out, and even if you weren’t trying to lead with your helmet, we tended to bang helmets on almost every play. Sometimes pretty hard too; I recall one time when I was playing defense, and I (6’1", 240 lbs) banged heads squarely with a guy who was about 6’2 and 250. Instant splitting headache, and was kind of foggy for the rest of the night, although there was no loss of consciousness and no loss of memory (I can remember the next play, and the remainder of the night.
The CTE issues are as much about the subconcussive hits as they are with the big-ticket bell-ringing concussions that everybody sees on TV. For example, Troy Aikman gets all the press for having 7 concussions, but it’s just as likely that Nate Newton, Kevin Gogan, John Gesek or Erik Williams will end up with CTE and dementia in later life.
I played a bit after you and from 3rd grade all the way through half of college (I literally walked away after I took a serious hit on a crossing route in practice- I just said, “it’s been great, but I’m done, I’d prefer to be in a chemistry lab”). I actually just pulled out my high school videos last weekend and was watching them compared to some videos posted by my old high school. My quasi-expert conclusion is that high school football is played much faster and much bigger and much harder than it used to be. Sure there might be better equipment- but that is countered by the ridiculous amount of people leading with their freaking heads/helmets today. It is just stupid to themselves and to the opponent. The recommendations to remove face masks as a solution to the football problem is spot on- the helmet has become a weapon and the only way to remove its use is to make it more dangerous for the person wielding the weapon.
My advice:
- Show him the PBS special on brain injuries
- Discuss it with him
- Make him stop playing. It can be his choice but ultimately it should be an ultimatum from you if necessary. (You make him wear a seat belt, right? Make the right decision here.)
You can do a search for the many threads about the probability of success in sports and the number of people here who saw Div. I or NFL level athletes early on in their lives. Those athletes stood out by your son’s age. (Michael Jordan is famously one of the lone standout from those lists of early prodigies.) Honestly, the best outcome is a Div. II scholarship and the worst outcome is ??? Knowing the average Doper, I think that being in a high school rock band will be the more likely to bring success. Just because he won’t play fb anymore doesn’t mean his friends will dump him or that he can’t find other friends elsewhere.
FWIW, I quit playing after tearing my MCL during my junior yr of high school. I remember my doctor saying something to the effect of “You’re a smart kid- you don’t need football to get to college- the smartest thing you can do is let it go.”
I didn’t much like it, but he was right, and I can’t say that I’ve had any real knee issues since, and nor have I had any other football-related issues that I can think of.
As pointed out upthread, the specific concern is the long term effect on the brain not debilitating injuries.
However, even though the small sample size (what, 46??) was mentioned in the Frontline piece it should be stressed. That we aren’t seeing it in thousands and thousands of football players suggests that something else is involved. Certain people may be more susceptible to it.
Well, I wouldn’t let a kid of mine play football any more than I’d let him box.
But you’ve got a different problem here - he’s getting a lot of good out of the team and forbidding him to play is going to have other consequences, like a furious teenager who isn’t interested in other sports. Playing sports in general is good for kids. Plus, the social aspects, etc. It’s not a question of whether to let him start in the sport anymore, he’s already entrenched in it.
So I’d talk to the parents of his friends. If they ALL have to go back to the soccer team, he’d go. At the very least, you can be active with the coaching staff about what measures can be taken. (Locally, the university is doing a lot of experiments on our IIRC local middle school players with accelerometers.)
While we do know some people suffer brain injury playing football we have no proof that all players suffer it. It really does come down to a risk vs. benefit reward.
This will ramble a bit, so bear with me.
I have a friend who played football from PeeWee up through Big Ten. Now that he’s in his mid-50’s he’s concerned about memory and dementia problems, which he seems to show signs of - on the other hand, he has survived being hit by a freight train as well, which unquestionably caused some damage (he was in a coma for a bit) so any signs of those things might be due to football or might be due to a later accident. He’s not debilitated, he’s capable of functioning and holding down a job, but he’s not what he once was.
His son played PeeWee football for a bit, then lost interest and my friend confesses to some relief. If the kid had been really enthused about football (much like the OP’s son seems to be) he would have allowed him to play but saw no reason to he had to and was happy when the kid got more interested in cross-country and such. The kid (who is now 18 - I’ve known him since he was 3) has mentioned he’s seen changes in his father these last few years and has wondered if it was due to his football years. It’s painful for him to see his father getting older in this way, but I’m not sure if that was the reason the kid gave up football or just lack of interest in getting hit all the time.
On the other hand, said friend and son are heavily into competitive yacht racing, the young man had three Chicago->Mackinaw races under his belt by the time he could legally drive, and he and his dad happily climb masts and 50 foot trees and do roofing jobs and other things that unquestionably carry a risk of severe injury or death. On top of that, one of the friend’s daughter was heavily into gymnastics from a young age and persevered despite the occasional broken limb requiring surgical reduction. The girl was rabid about it, when they needed to discipline her they would take away her balance bar or restrict her gymnastics practice, really, they were holding her back for her own good more than they were ever encouraging her. Again, this level of gymnastics has a certain number of broken necks and deaths every year, it definitely carries inherent risks, and yet what do you do with a kid who is gung-ho/obsessed with the sport? His third child, also a daughter, never really had much interest in sports and her parents never required her to join one.
As for me - at age 12 I was working on a horse farm, trading labor for riding lessons. That’s a little 12 year old girl working up close with multiple 1200 pound animals. It’s another activity where people get maimed and killed every year with unavoidable risks. Yet it was also one of the best things I ever did as a kid. And yeah, I fell off horses, got bucked off, got kicked across a corral more than once, got bit, got stepped on…I got injured on occasion. It was still worth it.
So… I’m torn here. It sounds like the OP’s kid is getting a LOT of good out of football. The world isn’t safe, and sooner or later kids are going to be doing something with inherent risks, and it’s not too early to start educating them on safety, good sense, and risk management. On the other hand, no one wants to see anyone’s kid crippled or killed in a sport.
I absolutely DO think the OP needs to sit his son down and watch the vids on the downside of football, read the articles, and have some frank discussions. 12 is NOT too early for this. While he doesn’t have the judgement of an adult (and probably won’t be fully mature in that respect until his mid-20’s, just like the rest of us) the discussion needs to start. Make it clear that you understand the camaraderie, the fun, all the benefits of playing this sport but talk about how he can keep himself safer. Let him known your concerns. Make it clear that if ever he has had enough it’s completely OK to move on to something else. Keep an eye on the team and the coaches and if you think something takes a turn for the less safe it is your right as a parent to pull him out.
I also think encouraging other interests is a good idea, be they sports or something else.
In sum, I don’t think it’s reasonable to restrict kids to totally safe activities. I do think it’s imperative for parents to supervise in an active manner and step in at a certain point. You also need to keep the kid informed of the risks, yes, even at the age of 12. If the kid is only a bit interested I’d say pull him, but it sounds like he’s getting LOTS of positives out of his sport of choice. It’s a hard call and ultimately up to the parents.
There is a bit of danger in pretty much every sport - my brother got a concussion and lost a front tooth playing baseball. I got concussed and my glasses broken getting nutted in soccer, and had pateller tendon damage twice on my right knee and once on my left knee by being spiked just under the kneecap 3 years running playing girls soccer, rolled an ankle playing tennis, and scraped the side of the pool and got a heck of an evulsion on my right shoulder playing water polo in gym. My sister in law played Pop Warner football and took the experience into basketball where the family joke is that she played full contact basketball - I think she still holds the foul record for their high school.
As has been mentioned, though, the issue here is NOT danger, in terms of possible broken bones, bad bruises, torn ligaments, etc. The issue is the near-certainty of constant low-level brain trauma. That’s a very different thing.
A kid might well have a horribly painful injury that they will get over? Worth risking for the benefits of sport.
A kid almost certainly will have repeated undiagnosed small concussions, which might well have a permanent impact on his cognitive functions? Very, very different.
Mine doesn’t play football or hockey - he does skateboard (and refuses to wear a helmet or pads), snowboard (helmet), and baseball (properly geared). Part of it is the violence in football and hockey - the hits. But you fall a lot on the skateboard (although, honestly, he doesn’t hit his head - his elbows and shins have gone through the meat grinder). It isn’t just the hits - its that YOU are hitting and potentially causing permanent injury, to someone else.
Part of it is also the commitment. When the boys were really little we missed the football meeting, but one of the other moms told me that the football coach has told them that practice was mandatory and more important than homework - we didn’t pursue football because football is NOT more important than math. And hockey, hockey takes parental dedication…
A few years ago Sam joined the boys’ baseball team. Sam was a really big kid - tall and broad, who’d played football for years. Until he shows up on the baseball team having not played since 2nd grade. “Football was getting too scary.” (Turns out Sam is a really bright kid - math team sort of bright - and was actually concerned about low level brain injury - some kids can weigh these risks at eleven and twelve.)
In my mind the risks of CET are additive to a long list of cons for football as a sport.
I want to thank you all for the good discussion here. A lot of the comments are really resonating with me. This is what is great about the Dope.
I guess my question in the OP is a non-starter, since I have allowed my son to play football, and it looks like I will continue to allow him to play. I have opened a small dialogue with him regarding safety, which may result in him getting his own helmet (the ones the team provides are very good, but there are better ones on the market). I don’t for a minute think this will make him immune to the risks we have been discussing here, however, but if it is something he and I can talk about openly, that is a good step. I want him to not just hear my concerns, but understand them as well.
As stated, the risks are presently outweighed by the rewards. But, the dilemma still holds for me that if someone here on this board or in real life asked me about their kid getting into football, I would try to talk them out of it, while my son continues to play.
First of all, thank you for updating us on your choice for you son. We always like to know how things turn out.
Secondly, I want to respond to the bit I quoted. Allowing your son to play while discouraging other people from allowing their sons to play does not make you a hypocrite. It makes you someone who learns from your actions-- and someone who pays attention to the world around you.
It is not your responsibility to protect young men from football related brain injuries by talking them out of playing football (or talking their parents out of playing football).
I do, however, think that you should make as sure as you can that they know now what you know now that you didn’t know then that might have made you make different decisions.
Right, that’s clear as mud.
What I mean is-- if watching Frontline: League of Denial made you aware of statistics on injuries and especially of efforts to cover up those injuries, encourage people to see it. Tell people about a couple of the most striking quotes from it, and emphasize that when your son was thinking about playing football, you believed the risks were a lot lower than you think they are today.
And also, make sure people know that when you agreed to let your son play football, you were thinking he’d give it a try for a year or two, and then move on to something else, but instead you have found that he has formed bonds with the other football players, and because of the structure of the programs in your town, he’s seeing himself as a player in high school, which is a bigger commitment than you initially pictured.
If my suggested talking points misrepresent your opinions, I apologize.
Have you watched the Frontline WITH the kid? Maybe he’d like to save his own brain.