Should I buy a Tesla S?

[echoreply]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

I don’t know specifically how the Tesla fares in cold weather, but electrochemical batteries tend to perform poorly in the cold (except thermal or ordnance batteries which get very hot, but these are one-time-use devices which often rupture once they are used). A general rule of thumb is that chemical reactions near room temperature the reaction rate (and thus power output) doubles for every 10 °C increase in temperature. So having great power output at 30 °C means pretty much fuck all at -10 °C where you are getting ~13% of the power output. That is like if your 150 bhp sedan started delivering 20 bhp once it dips below freezing.

The internal resistance of the battery should cause the battery to heat up and come to a good temperature once a load is placed on the battery. This is based on my reading of the manual for my lithium motorcycle battery, not on any actual knowledge I have about battery chemistry.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@echoreply

The internal resistance of the battery should cause the battery to heat up and come to a good temperature once a load is placed on the battery. This is based on my reading of the manual for my lithium motorcycle battery, not on any actual knowledge I have about battery chemistry.

It is true that you will get some internal heating once the battery is in use for a while; this applies whether the battery is being operated at low or high ambient temperatures. But the fact still remains that operating at cold temperates will offer degraded power ouput, and at a certain threshold you will not be able to get a high enough reaction rate to even generate useful levels of power output. The battery has to be designed to shed enough heat (or have a radiator system, as batteries on satellites often do) to keep the system at a temperature that don’t cause the electrolye and liner to degrade. Without an active temperature controlled environment, it is very difficult to design batteries for continuous operation with a controlled level of output at both very cold ambient temperatures and moderate to high ambient temperature.

Stranger

[Cell_Guy]

If you are unable to give a resounding “YES YES YES!!!” to your question you should not buy yourself a Tesla Model S. You should buy me one .

[Sunspace]

You’ll need to make sure you have a high-power (220V or above) charger at home. If you own a garage and can install it there, great; if you’re in a condo or co-op and the condo or co-op corporation lets you wire your parking spot for a charger, awesome. If you have a charger at work, lucky indeed. Otherwise, I’d be very hesitant. And I say that as someone who desperately wants electric cars to be practical, and is extremely aware of the limitations of current battery and transmission tech.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

But don’t be under the impression that you are saving the planet, though; unless you are charging it from your home solar grid, the extra electrical energy beyond normal household demand that is going into the car is being generated by natural gas and coal.

Sources of grid electricity are extremely location-dependent, though. In Ontario, our electricity comes from…
[ul][li]Nuclear: 12,998 MW or 36.2%[/li][li]Gas: 9,987 MW or 27.9%[/li][li]Coal: 3,293 MW or 9.2%[/li][li]Hydro: 7,939 MW or 22.1%[/li][li]Wind: 1,560 MW or 4.3%[/li][li]Other (wood waste, biogas, etc): 122 MW or 0.3%[/ul][/li]Source: IESO Supply Overview, April 15, 2013
If the OP is in Toronto and drawing from the grid, that’s what will power the car.

[Count_Blucher]

I’ve just spent a few days in / around Toronto. Yes, its beautiful… like NYC but cleaner. That said, I can’t imagine a Porsche or a Vette in Manhattan what with the potholes & bad traffic. True, I didn’t see [del]many[/del] any potholes in Toronto
(its asphault, they have to exist at some point)…but that traffic with all of its bottle necks? It’ll be the fastest 3 feet before braking of your life.

Bragging rights? Sure. You’ll get away from the red-faced drunken businessmen in Mercedes shouting “Welcome to Canada” before they ever get to the “F-ck Y-u…!”

[Ethilrist]

@Sunspace

You’ll need to make sure you have a high-power (220V or above) charger at home. If you own a garage and can install it there, great; if you’re in a condo or co-op and the condo or co-op corporation lets you wire your parking spot for a charger, awesome. If you have a charger at work, lucky indeed. Otherwise, I’d be very hesitant. And I say that as someone who desperately wants electric cars to be practical, and is extremely aware of the limitations of current battery and transmission tech.

A Tesla plugged into a 110 socket gets enough juice per hour to go 5 miles. If you get home at 6 pm and charge for 12 hours, you should have enough juice each day for a 60 mile round trip.

That said, if you can afford to spend $90,000 for a car, you can probably spring for a 240 volt outlet, which charges the car about 6 times as fast: 31 miles per hour of charging.

[lieu]

A friend just bought a Model S P85. He loves it and said he’d be happy to answer any specific questions you might have.

[Ethilrist]

How do they handle the possibility of electrocution if you’re charging it outside in the rain (say, at work or when staying at a motel)? Standard answer for me for avoiding electrocution is “don’t do that”, but when it’s time to charge the car, it’s time to charge the car.

[lieu]

He replies:* “Superstation = full charge in 45 min, 1/2 charge in 20 min. My car gets 250-300 mi per charge. Home charge (special 250v/100amp outlet installed) = 30 miles per hr (fully charge overnight). Other EV charge stations like BLINK etc., 30 miles per hr… slow.”*

Pretty much what others have reported. Thing is they want us to go with them to ballgame 200 miles away. He checked ahead and theres one superdtation but it’s in a small, podunk town nearby on the freeway. We’ll need to recharge once there so four of us will have to spend at least 30 minutes in a boring little waystation? I’m used to gassing up in 5 minutes. This is not an insignificant consideration.

Haven’t heard back about if rain is any issue.

[Fear_Itself]

@lieu

We’ll need to recharge once there so four of us will have to spend at least 30 minutes in a boring little waystation? I’m used to gassing up in 5 minutes. This is not an insignificant consideration.

If you say so. Seems relatively insignificant to me.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Fear_Itself

If you say so. Seems relatively insignificant to me.

Wasting thirty minutes of time waiting for the battery to charge? You may have time to burn, but modt people like to get where they are going and get shit done.

Also, another consideration is the number of charging outlets available and how long each is occupied. If even the ‘supercharger’ takes six times as long as a gas pump (and offers less distance than a typically sized gas tank) that means that you have to have six times as many charging stations. I guess charging stations can install one armed bandits or show short movies to keep people entertained and make more money while you are waiting for your vehicle to get charged, but I would personally find that extremely aggrevating.

Stranger

[Procrustus]

@Ethilrist

How do they handle the possibility of electrocution if you’re charging it outside in the rain (say, at work or when staying at a motel)? Standard answer for me for avoiding electrocution is “don’t do that”, but when it’s time to charge the car, it’s time to charge the car.

I’ve charged my Volt in the rain many times. Somehow it isn’t a problem. (yet)

[terentii]

Anyone who lives in the GTA should be concerned with range just as much as cold: It’s fucking HUGE, and it takes at least an hour to travel anywhere beyond it. If you live in, say, Scarborough and work in Mississauga, that’s one hell of a commute! I wouldn’t want to run out of battery power on the 401 during rush hour in December (or any other time).

I’m wondering also about the batteries in an electric car. How long before they won’t hold a charge any more and have to be replaced? Is this not a concern? If it is, how much does it cost to replace them?

[Fear_Itself]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Wasting thirty minutes of time waiting for the battery to charge?

nitpick: 25 minutes since you are wasting 5 minutes filling your tank anyway.

You may have time to burn, but modt people like to get where they are going and get shit done.

I do have time to burn. I gave up being in a hurry years ago; I don’t have to do it all.

Also, another consideration is the number of charging outlets available and how long each is occupied. If even the ‘supercharger’ takes six times as long as a gas pump (and offers less distance than a typically sized gas tank) that means that you have to have six times as many charging stations.

This presumes there are equal numbers of chargeable electric vehicles as gas fueled vehicles, so we can safely dismiss this argument for a few decades. By then, gas will be so expensive, your 6 to 1 ratio will probably be reality.

I guess charging stations can install one armed bandits or show short movies to keep people entertained and make more money while you are waiting for your vehicle to get charged, but I would personally find that extremely aggrevating.

Go to your happy place for 25 minutes. Life is too short to be aggravated over such piddling things, or extremely aggravated over anything that doesn’t involved handcuffs.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Fear_Itself

Go to your happy place for 25 minutes. Life is too short to be aggravated over such piddling things, or extremely aggravated over anything that doesn’t involved handcuffs.

You may be pleased to waste 500% more time powering your vehicle. For the average driver, this is a major negative for any vehicle to be used for travel beyond the vehicle charge range. That there are fewer electric vehicles makes the availability of charging stations not such an issue now, but the first time you have to wait thirty minutes in order to wait another half an hour (twenty-five minutes, if you insist on being so precise) to charge your own vehicle, it’ll become a serious hindrince.

Until this issue is dealt with–either by the use of batteries with vastly increased capacity, which isn’t evne on the horizon, or by a fuel cell or other system that can be recharged in a duration comparable to refuelig a petrocarbon powered vehicle today, this is a significant limitation on the replacement of coneventional internal combustion vehicles with an electric vehicle.

Stranger

[Fear_Itself]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

For the average driver, this is a major negative for any vehicle to be used for travel beyond the vehicle charge range.

The average driver rarely drives beyond the vehicle charge range in one day. If your mileage varies (literally!), this is not a good vehicle choice* for you.* That does not mean it is not the perfect vehicle for a significant portion of the market.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Fear_Itself

The average driver rarely drives beyond the vehicle charge range in one day. If your mileage varies (literally!), this is not a good vehicle choice* for you.* That does not mean it is not the perfect vehicle for a significant portion of the market.

It’s not a question of whether the “average driver” exceeds the range on a daily basis. It is a question of whether this vehicle is suited for the entire range of driving the typical average may do throughout the life of the vehicle, and if the the driver is prepared to keep a second vehicle or rent a vehicle for longer distance trips, or elsewise endure the logistics and delay of having to find and wait at a charging station.

Stranger

[Dewey_Finn]

Frankly, the people who can afford a Tesla Model S are going to have at least a second car, presumably one with a conventional gasoline engine.

[Heart_Full_of_Neutrality]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Until this issue is dealt with–either by the use of batteries with vastly increased capacity, which isn’t evne on the horizon, or by a fuel cell or other system that can be recharged in a duration comparable to refuelig a petrocarbon powered vehicle today, this is a significant limitation on the replacement of coneventional internal combustion vehicles with an electric vehicle.

Stranger

Tesla has announced a battery swap system that takes about 90 seconds, and will be priced at about the equivalent of 15 gallons of gasoline. The plan is to have this capability at all the Superchargers.

Here’s an article discussing it:
http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/21/autos/tesla-battery-swap/index.html

It was a different article I read that indicated a 15 gallon price target, I think this one indicates $50. Close enough.

Here’s a video comparison of a Model S battery swap vs an Audi fill up. The Audi does have a larger tank than 15 gallons though, so there may be a grain of salt warranted.
http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

[running_coach]

@Heart_Full_of_Neutrality

Tesla has announced a battery swap system that takes about 90 seconds, and will be priced at about the equivalent of 15 gallons of gasoline. The plan is to have this capability at all the Superchargers.

Here’s an article discussing it:
http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/21/autos/tesla-battery-swap/index.html

There’s a catch.
From the article.

Drivers who opt for the swap will have to eventually return to the station to get their original battery back, and they’ll have to pay for the service once again.

If they don’t return, they can pay to have the 1,000-pound battery shipped back to the service center nearest their home, or they can keep the new battery they’ve had installed, a battery’s efficiency varies depending on its age.

So how are they going to store and track old batteries for re-install and store new batteries?
What if someone opts for the switch with a aging battery pack, can he keep the new one for $50(as implied) or will he be required to take it back and replace later for $30K.