I did the “one or two years off” thing (actually it was a bit more than that) and when I finally decided to get my college degree, I got it with straight As. Because I was mature enough by then to know that college was all about the education and not all about the freedom from parental control, as many teenage students seem to think.
qts: Clinton had a Rhodes Scholarship, which is AFAIK exclusively for graduate work.
I’m an American ex-pat (since age 13) living in the UK, currently in my third year studying physics at St. John’s, Oxford, so hopefully I can give you some insight here. I’d definitely say you should apply abroad - living overseas has been a really good experience for me. It’s nice to meet people who’ve grown up in other cultures, and to see America from outside.
As far as practicalities: I don’t know how big an issue money is for you. There’s good news and bad news on that front. In general, I think you’ll find that Oxbridge is somewhat cheaper than the equivalent level of University in the US. I’m fortunate enough to paying domestic tuition, so I’m not an expert, but I think tuition for a foreign student is around $16,000 a year. On the negative side, I think that studying abroad means that you’re not eligible for some of the student aid that you might take for granted in the US.
Another factor to consider is that at least for Oxford + Cambridge you’ll probably need to fly over in December to interview for your place. It’s not a low stress experience, but it can be fun if you go into it with a positive outlook.
Good luck with your plans, and feel free to ask if you’ve got any questions about studying at Oxford (I’m not qualified to comment on studying at Aberystwyth!)
Assuming a high end university in Canada, the UK or the USA, I’d go for Canada or the UK over the USA so as to be in a culture, both on and off campus, that has a broader world view.
No but that is a temporary situation.
My point is simply this:
Yes college is a place to expand your mind and gain new experiences and all that. It is also a place to prepare yourself for a future career. Ideally, you will discover what you want to do and make a career out of it.
I recomend that you go to the best AMERICAN school you can get into. If you want to study abroad, you can do what my friend did. He entered a program where he speant the majority of his time in Europe but graduated with an American degree.
And Muffin, there are plenty of people and places in the USA that give you a broad world view.
msmith, USA is A-OK, even if she can get into a BETTER university abroad?
C’mon now.
Ninjachick should aim to get the best degree, and the best student experience, from the best university she can.
Why be limited to one country?
Born in the US, schooled in the US, graduated from college in the US (I’m assuming) - I don’t see that as developing a very broad world view for our little Chick who’s about to leave the nest. Especially since she’s thinking of International Politics as a possible major. And even you must admit that the United States has a reputation for parochialism, can’t you?
Wow. Thanks for all the replies.
QuizCustodet : Money is something of an issue for my family. Just enough to miss out on big need-based scholarships, but no where near enough to not look at tuition costs and wonder where that twenty-five grand a year is going to come from. Sixteen grand seems really cheap compared to a lot of US schools I’m looking at (most are at least in the mid-twenties). Does that include room and board and other such costs? And is that generally typical of costs for most schools over there?
Msmith : First off: please don’t assume that my reasons for going to college are just ‘so I can get a good job’ - that has nothing to do with it, actually. Also, I don’t recall ever saying that my career goals included anything about working for an American company. A big part of my reason for wanting to go to school overseas has to do with the direction in which this country is going (Namely, to hell, and in a handbasket). Furthermore, I really can’t see myself wanting a job with a company who says “No, you got your education somewhere else, we don’t like that”.
I’ve got another general question, though (Maybe for you, Quiz): some schools have the whole ‘college’ thing set up within them. I first saw this, I thought: Okay, like how some universities have the So-and-so college of engineering, of communications, and so on…only…it wasn’t. And there was much confusion.
Actually, I’ve got two questions: Most websites for UK schools (for obvious reasons) list their admissions standards in terms of the UK education system. I’m in IB, which I assume will be a help with international applications, only I have no idea what just about any of the “…or equivilant” mean. Would decent SAT/SAT II scores and a good number of points (somewhere around 35) on my IB diploma be ‘good’ by UK standards? I know what most US schools like to see is challenging classes even if it means not all A’s. Is IB considered as challenging in the UK as it is in the US?
Yeah, I gotta second that. Studying abroad is not nealry as important as you think Ninja. The reason for this is mainly that it does not exist as such. There are “Study Abroad” programs, yes, but let’s hope your parents aren’t (or are depending on your POV),as easily fooled by that as mine were.
My “semester” in Malaysia, Singapore & HK (I graduated with a major in CJ & a minor in Modern Architectureal Interpretations), was a non-stop party.
I meant to spell “Architectural”, not the other way. Sorry, my bad.
Anyway, after spending twenty grand of my Parent’s money & borrowing a few ton more than that, here I am, a Traffic Cop. La dee da! Just goes to show what a tremendous waste college really is. In all seriousness, I have gotten much more educational value out of the semster of Accounting I took at the local community college than I did from my four years at University of Maryland.
I think school really is a four year vacation for teenagers for the most part. Ninja, if you are serious about the quality of your education, what you are best served by doing is looking into what you will do to get your masters instead of how much cashola you can blow on vacation. Sounds rediculous, I know, but when you consider that the cost of living in Europe is much higher than in the US, you are saving less than nothing, even if tuition is free there. Also, there are travel expenses involved as well.
Playing Devil’s Advocate here, but you really ought to consider this from every angle first, then decide if you still want to do the most expensive option possible.
Hello, foreign student checking in, Dane in Oxford. I did the IB too (assuming we are indeed talking about the International Baccalaureate here, and not something else). It seems well respected, at least it damn well should be :p. For some comparison, my applications to UK universities came back something like:
Oxford: 38 points
Edinburgh: 36 points, 6 in History and English
York: 32 I think.
I can’t even remember what the other three offers were anymore, but one of them was an unconditional offer I think. Of course, what you’re applying to do makes a difference as well. History and Politics is apparently a bit hard to get into, at least in Oxford, compared to straight history. I must have had a good recomendation or application or interview or something. A friend of mine got into Cambridge doing chemistry, they wanted 42 points and 7 in chemistry and physics. However, the sciences are usually stricter with grade requirements it seems, while the arts subjects are based on how well you can argue and so on. PPE (Politics, Philosophy and Economics) is relatively easy to get into it seems.
Anyway, studying in the UK is pretty good, I recommend it. I’ll have to echo the above sentiments on “don’t just do a year abroad” and “a Master’s degree is probably more useful”, though.
Oh, and if you do apply to go to uni in the UK - you have six choices when you apply. Put Oxford and LSE (for example) on there, it can’t hurt to try (I applied as the result of a joke, wasn’t expecting to get in. Wahay!). Then come to Oxford (St. Catherine’s College, naturally) and kick the Taekwando club’s collective butt. (They don’t seem very good)
Any further questions on how it is to be a foreign student in the UK, just ask, here or by e-mail.
No she should go to a non-USA university because having pride in being from the USA is “uncool”. If NinjaChick is deciding between London School of Economics and Podunk College, I think the choice is obvious. If she is deciding between LSE and Harvard, either one is probably fine. I’m not saying she should rule out foreign schools. I’m just saying that she shouldn’t go to just any overseas school just because she wants to get out of the USA.
It sounds to me you don’t really know what you want and the only reason you are even going to college is because that’s what your parents want. You need to think about why you are going and if you could achieve the same goals without dropping thousands of dollars.
You will eventually be working for some kind of company and you might want to think now what you want to be doing for them.
This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. After four years of partying and choosing a major that does not adequately prepare him for the real world, IEatFood is now stuck in a dead-end job that isn’t to his liking. It may have been a much diferent story if he had majored in Architecture or Accounting.
Oh, no MrsSmith, I think you have me all wrong, lol. I love my job, really I do, but I was just saying that there was no reason on Earth for me to go trolliping around the planet to prepare for it. I don’t regret school, but at the same time, I just don’t fall for all these “lofty” aspirations of grandeur that can somehow only result in overseas schooling.
When I said “La-dee-da”, all I meant was “All that school & I still make considerably less than 100k/year, lol.”
As for dead end? No, I don’t think so. I’ll be eligible for the Sargent’s Exam in a few years. With that, I will likely be able to do accident investigations (Why this? Simple. The subject fascinates me, and when I retire in eighteen more years, --I am only twenty four-- I will have the neccessary backroud to get a jog in the private sector, likely with an insurance co.)
I basically got the job because I saw a reasonable future that would support my daughter & myself (the benefits in this line of work are very hard to compete with in the private sector), and I would retire young enough to “Double Dip.” This way, I will be able to send my daughter overseas when she wants to on vacation, erm, I mean “school” too, 
My appologies. I assumed by your “lad-de-da” statement that your job was not one of your choosing and you didn’t care for it.
Other than that, I agree with you. I don’t see much of an advantage to overseas schooling unless you want a career working for a multinational company where you can get involved in their overseas operations. Personally, I think a person would be better off studying a foreign language if they wanted to do that.
I don’t know. With the high price of college these days, it just seems like a waste of money unless you are going to do something later on to get a return on your investment.
Here’s the reference for fees at Oxford - looks like it may come out as a little bit more than 16, depending on your course and college. http://www.admissions.ox.ac.uk/finance/#7
I’m not sure on fees for other Universities: your best bet is probably to look at their web pages.
The combination of the University tuition fee and the college fee is just tuition, as far as I’m aware (I’m not sure how they define the college fee.) How much room and board will be depends on which college you’re at - I spend about $5,000 a year between room, board and entertainment, but St. John’s is quite a wealthy college so that might be on the low side. Another thing to bear in mind is that for most arts subjects, an English degree lasts 3 years instead of 4, so you save on tuition. They’ll also expect a slightly higher standard of achievement in your subject than you’d get in high school, but having done the IB I expect you’ll be fine.
Which brings us on to the question about colleges. Oxford, Cambridge (and Durham, to a lesser extent) are collegiate universities - while you’re a student at the University, and lectures are usually organized University wide, your day-to-day life and work will revolve around your college. You’ll write essays/do problem sheets for an academic who’s affiliated with your college, and meet with them once or twice a week to supplement the lectures. College will also provide you with accommodation for at least your first year, often your final year, and occasionally for your whole course. It gives you a base and a manageable group of people to get to know initially, but University societies and clubs are there to keep you from being stifled. It’s a great combination of a small school atmosphere with the opportunities provided by a big University, and I love it.
There’s a lot to say, so my apologies if anything doesn’t make sense. Do ask, and I’ll try to make more sense!
I would worry about studying Law outside of USA if you intend to get a legal job in USA. Do ant lawyers here have information in how difficult the translation from UK law to USA law is?
I would worry about studying Law outside of USA if you intend to get a legal job in USA. Do ant lawyers here have information in how difficult the translation from UK law to USA law is?
As for Politics and English there are many UK Universities that will offer as good an education in these fields as can be found in the USA. It would be useful if you can get the views of possible future employers as to how they rate UK University degrees. All the UK Universities so far mentioned in this thread are of excellent caliber, but if your future employee does not understand that you may be out of luck. If you can afford it, and are of sufficient caliber then for English and Politics Oxford or Cambridge University would be fantastic. Both universities are much older than the united states (founded in the 12th century IIRC).
ninjachick, BTW PPE at Oxford IS NOT A CAKEWALK TO GET INTO.
Oxbridge have academic requirements as a MINIMUM.
the interview selection is very rigourous, the Oxbridge dopers here are being too modest. the competition for places is very high, they can’t afford to let in anyone they don’t feel 100% about.
it’s not a given that good grades will get you in, they seek specific qualities, and having a good interview technique is essential.
most countries have a one year conversion course to allow an international law student to achieve a degree in their laws, and an international law student will certainly study both EU and US law.
Quite apart from the culture broadening approach to school selection, you might simply find out who the top scholars in your field are, and then see which school has them.
This was my approach to my first degree. I was into English, and the two scholars who interested me the most were Frye and McLuhan. Thus I selected their school. Worked for me.
I disagree with this, to some extent.
Bruce Sterling, in his forward-looking book Tomorrow Now, talks about how unlikely it is that what one actually studies in school will have anything to do with one does for a living. The world is changing at such a rapid pace that what I’m actually doing for a living right now will likely be obsolete in two years, let alone what I may have studied in school ten years ago or more. Unless you’re looking to do something so technical that a concrete foundation is required (law, medicine, architectural engineering, etc.), I say it isn’t helpful to limit oneself too far in advance.
I serve as my own example. I have a Fine Arts degree. I would challenge anyone to choose a less lucrative educational option than that. And what do I do to earn my paycheck? Database administration. I have absolutely no formal technical education in computer science; I’ve just picked it up along the way. Indeed, since I used to be involved with technical recruiting, we had the truism that somebody who thought the programming and analysis they learned in college would be a ticket into the private sector was not automatically somebody we put at the head of the line for the job, since the languages and technological specifications get overturned with such regularity.
Sterling describes the change in the educational paradigm like this: You used to learn stuff you could use on the job. Now, instead, you learn how to learn so you can adapt to a fluid work environment. People who try to carve their career in stone via their educational choices tend not to do very well (again, with the technical exception noted above). On the other hand, people who can continue to learn throughout their lives and add new information and skills to their toolbox — in other words, people who know how to learn — thrive in the new economy.
Unless you’re going to be a doctor or a chemist or something, don’t take the subject of your education that seriously. Focus on the methodology of it, and keep your brain limber. That’s what’s going to serve you well, in the long run. And if going to a foreign school is what you think is the best choice for that, then go for it. Just be clear about why you’re doing it.
That’s a great point, Cervaise. I’m another example of that; my post-secondary schooling:
- completed first year of University (English major)
- completed a two-year diploma course in Medical Laboratory Technology
- completed a one-year diploma course in Business Machine Technology
- completed a one-year diploma course in Business Adminstration
and am now working as a file clerk, and thinking about getting some schooling in Records Management, because I think I’ve finally found my niche. I don’t consider any of my schooling a waste; I took every course I took because I was interested in it. I’ve learned valuable skills from every one, too.
Here’s some league table info for the UK for doing Politics and English.
http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/education/english.html
http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/education/politics.html
http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/education/law.html
On a personal note, I’m doing Politics at Sheffield and I’m having a fabulous time. Great tutors, interesting courses and an amazing place to live. I’ve been making friends with some of the Year abroad/Erasmus students who are over for a semster and they’re having a ball. Some of them don’t wanna leave and not one of them regret their choice to come here. Anyway, good luck in your search, if you’ve got any questions, feel free to ask me. I can always get an American perspective for you.