I was involved in a car accident on Thursday. I’m okay, thanks. Although I’ve got a few minor injuries it could have been worse. But in speaking with the insurance co. and with others, I’m concerned about the ticket I was given.
Here’s what happened. I’m in a left turn lane behind two other cars. All of us are stopped. The first car is well into the intersection. The light turns yellow and shortly after the first car goes through while the car in front of me and myself edge forward. Then the car in front of me goes. I’m now at the intersection wondering if I have enough time under the yellow to make the turn. It’s clear (I coulda swore it was clear!) so I make my left turn. You guessed it, the other driver tries to gun through the yellow and we collide.
The posted speed on this road is 80 km/h - but I have little doubt she was doing at least 90 if not faster. After I check oncoming traffic, I glanced at the light, then started through the wide intersection. It must have been 5 seconds between my check and the collision. Given these assumptions, she was 250m away when I checked. Allow for another 5 seconds for the first two cars (I’m sure it was actually longer) and the light would have changed while she was a half a kilometer away. Surely I can rely on a reasonable driver having stopped under those circumstances, meaning it was safe for me to turn.
The officers interviewed only witnesses. They didn’t take a statement from me. They charged me with unsafe left turn. My sense at the time was it was almost perfunctory, you know, let the courts sort it out kinda thing. But if the charge sticks the insurance company seems to think the fault is 50-50 between me and the other driver, or so they said based solely on the charge (i.e. before they asked me what happened).
I’ll admit my own view is biased, but I do not believe my turn was unsafe. Well, clearly it was unsafe as there was an accident - but the charge implies I should have known it was unsafe. If I had noticed the other drivers’ speed at the 250m mark, you bet I would have not made the turn. But isn’t my failure to notice her intention to blow the yellow reasonable under the circumstances?
So what’s your opinion:
Was my turn unsafe?
If not, is the ticket worth fighting (i.e. do I have a shot at convincing a judge, or a snowball’s chance?)
What should I bring to court? Should I return to the scene and take measurements (timing of lights, distances, etc.)
Your turn was unsafe. If you’re at a yellow light trying to figure out if you have enough time to squeeze through before the red, you don’t. Wait for another light cycle.
No, it’s not worth fighting, but in a local US court anyway it might be worth going to court to beg mercy from the judge in an attempt to reduce the fine and/or points on your license.
Personally, I’d fight it.
If it where I, this is how it happened.
I was in the intersection when it turned yellow, the other two cars in front of me cleared the intersection and I was still in it. The oncoming car appeared to be slowing down and the light was about to turn red (or did it turn red before the oncoming car made it into the intersection), so I went. The other person ran the light and broadsided me.
At least that’s how it happened to me.
BTW did the other person get a ticket?
BTW it’s ALWAYS worth fighting. If you have a good record and the judge is feeling nice, there’s a good chance the ticket will be reduced. The smaller the ticket, the less your insurance rates will go up, if they go up.
Even if you just tell the judge that your sorry blah blah blah but money is tight and your trying to keep your insurance down, sometimes they’ll help you out.
It’s not entirely clear from your post - you were hit by someone in the oncoming lane while both of you where trying to gun through a yellow light?
Obviously the intersection wasn’t clear, so unless you’ve got some reasonable explanation as to why you couldn’t see and judge the speed of oncoming traffic I’d say you’re SOL. Seems simple to me. Five seconds between checking and proceeding is an eternity.
That’s right - Although I wouldn’t describe my speed as “gunning it,” my concern (after checking the oncoming lane) was to get out of the intersection before the light changed.
Yes, something to the effect of failing to stop for a yellow (however it’s officially worded).
I just got off the phone with the insurance adjuster. From their perspective the other facts do not seem to matter. All that matters is the Fault Determination Rules chart. My case is 12(5) so I’m 100% at fault (the left side of the diagram is practically my scenario). When I asked, “What if a judge finds in my favour regarding the ticket?” she said, “Doesn’t matter. The chart’s the thing.”
The only leg I thought I had to stand on is a reasonable driver in her place would have stopped long before the five seconds and I was entitled to expect that, and not continually scan to ensure all drivers are doing the right thing.
The adjuster said the other driver had the right-of-way. Imagine the other driver had stopped. Clearly then my turn would have been safe. But must I continually scan to ensure she didn’t gun it once I started the turn? Is her right-of-way absolute? In that hypothetical situation I would have put my eyes squarely forward and made the turn. Back to my situation: having noted there were no cars within 250m, knowing the light was yellow for a good while, soon-to-be-red, not judging there was a car with intent to run the light, it seems to me my next concern is clearing the intersection before the light did change and I directed my attention to that.
*I am not a lawyer or even a driver’s ed teacher, but IIRC, in my home state of Washington, when making a left turn from a non-arrow traffic light, you have the right of way as long as you remain in the intersection, even if your light turns red. Now keep in mind, you shouldn’t have entered the intersection if the light had already been yellow, but that aside, you should be fine making the left when it was safe to do so. Don’t worry about what the traffic light says if you’re in such a predicament; make damn sure the oncoming traffic has stopped before proceeding.
HAH! Try telling that to drivers in L.A. (where it is commonplace that 1, 2, or even 3 cars will turn left well after the light has turned red. Even police cruisers. If they didn’t, nobody would ever make a left turn around here)
A reasonable driver in your place would not have entered the intersection after two cars had already gone on the yellow.
If you want to be safe, the answer is a resounding, “Yes.” Never try to read the mind of another driver; respond only to what they actually do. Well, live and learn.
Well, I was in almost the exact same position as you were just before X-mas. In my case the woman who hit me ran the red light (ie - she entered the intersection when the light was red). Police didn’t visit the scene and neither of us were issued a ticket (I guess they don’t do that too much here).
Originally I was 100% at fault as per your FDR chart. However, I spoke to my insurance adjuster, she spoke to the other woman, and the other woman said that I shouldn’t have been in the intersection so she was allowed to hit me. Heh. 25% my fault, 75% her fault. So I say fight it. If you can get the other person to admit something like the other lady in my case did you might get lucky.
Not true on a couple of counts. One, it is illegal to enter an intersection unless you can safely clear the intersection before the light turns red and two, the correct place to wait to make a left hand turn is at the stop line, not the middle of the intersection. I have heard the argument you have given a number of times but have yet to see a judge accept it.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying it’s not safe. It’s not safe in LA, it wasn’t safe when the OP did it and it wasn’t safe when I did it last Wednesday when the jackhole from the right lane cut in and turned left in front of me in rush hour traffic after I had edged into the intersection on the green and had no choice but to half run the red to clear the intersection. Other drivers are idiots and maniacs and the OP got a lesson in that. An extra two or three minutes at a red light, I’m betting, would have been prefereable to an accident, injuries, a ticket and a bump in insurance.
You’re absolutely right there! I wish I could do it over again - or rather not do it. Lesson learned indeed.
Thanks for everyone’s opinions. Looking at it a bit more objectively, I agree I have a share of contributory negligence (if that’s the right legalese). I don’t agree that I have 100% of the fault - but I doubt I’ll get my insurance company to agree. I might get a judge to agree to 50-50, but that wouldn’t get me out of the ticket, and would have no effect on the insurance company.
I’ll pay the damned ticket (it’s only $110) and eat the bump to my insurance. I can only hope it’s not too high given my age and driving record.
If that were the case, cars making a left would never clear some intersections in Seattle.
Well, this is contrary to what I learned in driver’s ed, and the videos shown within. I’m also fairly confident I have read this elsewhere, as it pertains to WA.
This cite (though in regards to Texas & New York) seems to agree with what I’ve stated.
*“It is permissible and even the preferred practice, when making a left turn, to
enter into the intersection and wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic.
However, it is not directly speeled out in any publication or the actual code,
but is an “interpretation” of a couple of the rules in the code. I would like
to find some official Texas traffic agancy reference on this subject.” *
For the record, my mom was hit while making a left from a stop sign in a residential area in Ohio. She looked left, saw a car way down the 25 MPH street, looked right and saw nothing, went to turn left and the car that had been way down the street a second ago was now smashed up in her door.
Even though the dude that hit her was clearly speeding (no witnesses…and no CSI), she got the ticket and was told it was because people making a left never have the right of way.
It sucks, but you were in the wrong. If there were two cars ahead of you, I assume that you were behind the intersection when the light turned yellow. At least in WI, the law says that if you can safely get stopped when the light turns yellow, you have to stop. Proceeding into an intersection when the light is already yellow is illegal if you were already stopped or nearly stopped.
Now, I realize that it is common practice to turn left on yellow or even pink (freshly red), but that doesn’t make it legal and like others have said, you stand very little chance of successfully fighting this one in court.
