Should libraries offer movies, music CDs and video games?

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Justin_Bailey

I don’t think you know what “cheaply” means, to be honest.

What isn’t cheap about Blockbuster? I can rent a movie for a week for a couple of pounds. I suspect that the only definition of cheap you recognize is “free”, correct?

And your position is extremely controversial, as the vast majority of libraries carry movies and CDs.

The position that “governments should not spend money on things businesses are already doing” isn’t particularly controversial. It just hasn’t got through to the librarians, yet.

As for games, the percent of the budget that is put towards is so small as to be pointless. It’s likely some libraries spend more on toner.

I’m not interested in how much it costs.

I’ve said it before, but libraries try to house information/entertainment options over a wide variety of formats and genres. No one is inherently better than the other.

Nobody is claiming otherwise; it isn’t a question about relative worth of media, it’s a question about what the free market is already supplying, and where it is appropriate for government to step in and provide a service.

I’ll repeat:

Book lending: OK.

Videos and games: not OK.

I have already pointed out that even if a game console was purchased with library funds, it is roughly equal to the amount of money that would be spent on a visiting performer. No one questions the value of visiting performers, even though their fee only covers one performance. Having a game console day can be used dozens of times a year and can be open to a variety of ages (Google “wii bowling seniors” if you don’t believe me).

Performances like this should be charged for, too.

Also, you keep throwing out this 75/25 split as if it were gospel. It’s not. It’s my best guess based on discussions with colleagues across the country and by reading articles about the games in libraries movement. No one has the actual percentages because no one cares beyond the individual library level.

I’m not throwing out anything as if it’s gospel, and it’s rather bemusing you’d throw that accusation at me, seeing you’re the one that’s pulling numbers out of your ass, and I’m merely working with what you’re telling me.

So, let’s suppose some unknown percentage of libraries, X, receive donated consoles. For the purposes of this thread, we’re talking about the 100-X% of libraries who purchase their consoles. Is that clear enough for you?

(I think we can both take it as given that X =/= 100, can’t we?)

[Justin_Bailey]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

What isn’t cheap about Blockbuster? I can rent a movie for a week for a couple of pounds. I suspect that the only definition of cheap you recognize is “free”, correct?

You are the only person I have ever heard that has referred to Blockbuster’s prices as cheap. And yes, there is a HUGE gulf between cheap and free. It’s what the digital divide is all about.

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

The position that “governments should not spend money on things businesses are already doing” isn’t particularly controversial. It just hasn’t got through to the librarians, yet.

So healthcare should be right out shouldn’t it? After all, private companies provide healthcare insurance, shouldn’t the UK abolish their public healthcare system?

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

Performances like this should be charged for, too.

Well, they’re not. The idea behind libraries is that they’re open to all. They do not charge for things unless they absolutely must. But I ask again, considering the facts of what libraries already spend their programming budgets on, isn’t a game console a great investment and a good way to stretch the budget?

[Inner_Stickler]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

You can rent books? £2 video rental vs. £200 book purchase (that’s the retail price of the last book I borrowed from the university library, according to Amazon.co.uk). Not really a good comparison, is it?

As others have pointed out, private lending libraries do exist. Now, I am not very educated in the field of economics, but it seems to me that if private lending libraries do a better job of providing access to information than public libraries, then public libraries should be suffering low attendance and usage with private libraries popping up in every town. I don’t see that happening.

[lee]

I’m reminded of my high school. There was a computer classroom, where they taught BASIC and Pascal. The teacher had gotten a few games, and we were allowed to come in during lunch and play them. Pretty soon, the room was packed to capacity with as many people as there were computers times 3 or 4 with watchers. It was mainly text adventures, as this was 1983.

Apparently there was a bit of a mystery at the school, the administration was concerned because they could not figure out what happened to those who normally loitered in the parking lot smoking (and not always cigarettes) and making mischief. When it was discovered that the computer class room had most of them occupied, they bought more games.

I have no problem with libraries purchasing games for loan or letting people play games on their computers. In my experience libraries have rules about how one must behave and how long one can use a computer if others are waiting, I see no reason to make special rules to ensure that people are not having fun using the library resources.

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Justin_Bailey

You are the only person I have ever heard that has referred to Blockbuster’s prices as cheap. And yes, there is a HUGE gulf between cheap and free. It’s what the digital divide is all about.

In as far as Blockbuster’s pricing is a subject of conversation amongst my friends and I, it’s never been noted that they’re particularly expensive, and we aren’t exactly rolling in money. Of course, Blockbuster is but one of many outlets that rent movies and games. But, the fact that they’re a huge multinational with outlets in multiple countries suggests that they’re doing something right.

So healthcare should be right out shouldn’t it? After all, private companies provide healthcare insurance, shouldn’t the UK abolish their public healthcare system?

Not necessarily, as healthcare’s a special case. For one, it’s taken as given by the vast majority that the right to health case is unassailable. This puts health care in a weird position, as any private venture must either insure everybody, or the government must cover the uninsured (Medicare and Medicaid, anybody?). In the end, it just becomes more efficient to have government run the whole lot.

But, this isn’t incompatible with what I have been saying: where private businesses are providing a good level of service cheaply, there’s no need for government to step in.

Well, they’re not.

Actually, some do. Local libraries (in fact any facility operated by the Leisure and Culture Trust, including the park where I used to work when home from university) in my home borough charge a nominal fee for events like Under 5’s Playtime, Babyclubs, Saturday Club, craft events etc. The pricing is usually under £2, but enough to cover the cost of the event, materials used etc.

Activities like reading groups, that require no special materials, or the booking of external entertainers, are usually free. See here.

But I ask again, considering the facts of what libraries already spend their programming budgets on, isn’t a game console a great investment and a good way to stretch the budget?

Within the context of current library expenditure? Yeah, they’re probably an easy way to stretch the budget.

[Justin_Bailey]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

In as far as Blockbuster’s pricing is a subject of conversation amongst my friends and I, it’s never been noted that they’re particularly expensive, and we aren’t exactly rolling in money. Of course, Blockbuster is but one of many outlets that rent movies and games. But, the fact that they’re a huge multinational with outlets in multiple countries suggests that they’re doing something right.

Blockbuster has been teetering on the edge of disaster for years (Blockbuster (retailer) - Wikipedia), they’re probably not a good example of the free market doing something right.

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

Actually, some do. Local libraries (in fact any facility operated by the Leisure and Culture Trust, including the park where I used to work when home from university) in my home borough charge a nominal fee for events like Under 5’s Playtime, Babyclubs, Saturday Club, craft events etc. The pricing is usually under £2, but enough to cover the cost of the event, materials used etc.

Well, in case you haven’t noticed from my posts yet, this is highly irregular in a US library. I’m sure it happens, but it is not common.

[MenaceKiler]

A large portion of the target audience for public libraries is for those who may not be able to spare even a dime for things like movies, video games, and the like. I’m all in favor of being able to have libraries serve their community in the way its needed, and electronic media such as video games and DVD movies accomplish that. Closing the gap between “haves” and “have nots” is certainly a role our government and those funded by the government have taken on today.

I’ve known families who simply cannot spare the $2 for a video rental or $50 for a game to entertain their kids. Everything goes to food, rent, and transportation. The library allows the kids to at least pick their entertainment – this week I’ll check out books, next I’ll check out games, next music, etc. Better than potentially having them out of the streets bored.

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Justin_Bailey

Blockbuster has been teetering on the edge of disaster for years (Blockbuster (retailer) - Wikipedia), they’re probably not a good example of the free market doing something right.

Because a business with a $5.4 billion annual revenue is the first thing that comes to mind when somebody mentions “failed businesses”? Whatever. Pick another video rental store, there’s enough of them around.

[Inner_Stickler]

There’s no blockbuster in my town. The two video rental stores that we do have don’t see a lot of business and they don’t really stock anything older, indie, or otherwise not mainstream. Anything that’s not newest release I have to go to the library to get. So I pick the library.

[Voyager]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

Because a business with a $5.4 billion annual revenue is the first thing that comes to mind when somebody mentions “failed businesses”? Whatever. Pick another video rental store, there’s enough of them around.

I don’t know what it is like in Scotland, but in the US Blockbuster is getting creamed by NetFlix, and will be in worse trouble when bandwidth expands to allow simple movie downloads. As for other video stores, they’ve all gone out of business here already.

In any case, Blockbuster doesn’t really even compete with libraries. Most of Blockbuster’s business is new DVDs, which libraries don’t get for months if ever, and then only one copy, not the multiple ones Blockbuster gets. The overlap in DVDs between my Blockbuster and library is maybe 10% from the library perspective and 1% from the Blockbuster perspective. I suspect if the library stopped lending DVDs, Blockbuster would get no more business.

As for healthcare, I agree with you, but in the US you would be considered a damn socialist.

[Jragon]

Capt. Ridley (Sidenote: Any other mega-nerds finding the fact there’s an epic battle between posters named Ridley and Justin_Bailey hilarious?), would you have an issue with the library stocking films and such that are really indie “art” films or otherwise economically undesirable ones? After all, Blockbuster and its ilk are there to make a profit, and as such doesn’t stock what they deem to be unprofitable as it takes shelf space from more money-making rentals. My local blockbuster, for instance, only had 4 or 5 Gamecube games (much to me chagrin) because the nearby demographics suggested they wouldn’t rent well.

As such really unheard of or woefully unpopular films either aren’t stocked at all or disappear into the “bargain bin” (where they’re sold, not rented) after a week or two post release. Would you have an issue with libraries stocking films (especially more educational ones, mine had an old VHS about half-human half-monster beasts in Greek Mythology that scared me as a kid) that the private sector REFUSES to provide access to?

[Odesio]

The library I work at had copies of The Dark Knight on the shelves the same day it was for sale. If my podunk little state can have libraries with new copies of a hot movie I find it difficult to believe that libraries in Los Angeles, Dallas, or New York don’t also. I suppose it’s possible though.

[Justin_Bailey]

@Odesio

The library I work at had copies of The Dark Knight on the shelves the same day it was for sale. If my podunk little state can have libraries with new copies of a hot movie I find it difficult to believe that libraries in Los Angeles, Dallas, or New York don’t also.

Agreed. I’m not sure where this idea that libraries only carry crappy movies comes from. I buy some good shit for my collection.

[XT]

But you don’t have 15 copies of the latest movies plus a wide collection of foreign films and several copies of even older DVD’s just laying about I bet…such as BlockBuster does.

-XT

[Lynn_Bodoni]

I’ll repeat:

Book lending: OK.

Videos and games: not OK.

And after all this discussion, I still don’t understand WHY you think so. My local libraries have a large selection of romances (and here I am using “romances” to mean love stories, as opposed to the use of romance to refer to westerns, SF, and general adventure stories). These novels are written to a very exact formula. I wouldn’t dream of reading one, unless I’d already read all the cereal box backs, but there are a great many people who love them. I’m pretty sure that just about all these books are donated. The libraries allocate precious shelf space to these books. That’s fine with me, as apparently they get checked out a great deal, and so the library is fulfilling its function by offering these books.

The library is a PUBLIC function, and so it must cater to the needs of the PUBLIC, within reason. Sure, it would be great if the public only used the library for research. However, I think that bringing people in for whatever reason will expose them to possibly more intellectual pursuits.

As for various video rental places, both online and B&M, last time I checked, a potential customer needed a credit card, decent credit, and another form of ID. Thus, their services are not available to everyone.

[Lynn_Bodoni]

@Justin_Bailey

Agreed. I’m not sure where this idea that libraries only carry crappy movies comes from. I buy some good shit for my collection.

I think it’s because many libraries rely on donated materials for quite a bit of their collections. What sort of movies do you carry? And how do you select them?

At one time, I thought of becoming a librarian, and took a couple of college courses in library science.

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Lynn Bodoni

The library is a PUBLIC function, and so it must cater to the needs of the PUBLIC, within reason. Sure, it would be great if the public only used the library for research. However, I think that bringing people in for whatever reason will expose them to possibly more intellectual pursuits.

No offence, but are you sure you’ve read the thread? You certainly claimed you did, but you’re talking about something that I’ve never even mentioned. I’m not interested in the educational content of whatever media is on offer, and I’ve never once claimed that games should be banned from the library because they are not educational.

Look, the basis of my argument is a simple and entirely reasonable belief: that the government should not be providing services where the private sector is already doing well. It’s perfectly possible to have two internally consistent set of beliefs that leads to radically different interpretations on what’s suitable for the inventory of a public library (c.f. this thread). You can try playing “gotcha” with healthcare, the military, police forces etc. all you want; you aren’t going to find a contradiction.

Now, I’ll concede and temper my position somewhat, in light of the posts of Voyager et al., as the only market I have any sort of familiarity with is the UK’s (a side-effect of the international nature of the message board). Here, you do not need to possess a credit card to rent a movie, just a bank account/debit card (which are nigh universal) or proof of your address. To my knowledge, no credit checks are carried out, I don’t even think that would be legal (?).

Further, the movie rental business seems to be thriving with at least two Blockbusters within walking distance of my flat, a host of smaller, locally owned rentai businesses, and a smaller chain, Moviebank, that’s relatively new, also within walking distance. (Netflix hasn’t caught on in the same way here.)

So, I’ll limit the scope of my complaints to British libraries

[Justin_Bailey]

@Lynn_Bodoni

What sort of movies do you carry?

Everything. Action, adventure, sci-fi, romance, documentary, educational, TV shows, comedy, horror, you name the genre, we have at least one example.

@Lynn_Bodoni

And how do you select them?

Let’s see, a combination of (in no order)…

• Box office performance
• Critical reception
• Awards won (specifically Oscars)
• DVD sales performance
• Patron requests
• Whether the plot summary sounds cool

[ZenBeam]

@Justin_Bailey

The UK actually has a publicly funded university library devoted to the preservation of video games, the National Videogame Archive. It’s a shame that the Brits don’t seem to realize that “video game” is supposed to be two words though.

The University of Michigan Computer and Video Game Archive offers a similar approach in the US, but it’s more focused on giving students (for entertainment) and researchers (for research) hands on time with the games.

A couple articles on the UM Computer and Video Game Archive from the Michigan Daily (campus newspaper).
Library opens video game archive
Archive brings games old and new to students
It doesn’t say in those, but in article in the Detroit Free Press two weeks ago said that this was open to the public, not just UM students. The article is here, but it isn’t free online.

They accept donations of equipment.

[Voyager]

@Justin_Bailey

Agreed. I’m not sure where this idea that libraries only carry crappy movies comes from. I buy some good shit for my collection.

I said unpopular, not crappy. I can get a lot of seasons of MASH in my library, not my Blockbuster, and that is hardly crappy.

Do you get current teen slasher films for your library? That might be a good example of something that Blockbuster has a lot of which I wouldn’t mind if the library had none of.

My library doesn’t have recent films - though I suppose it is possible they are all gone when I browse the shelves.