Should Parents Be Allowed to End Kids' Education at 8th Grade For Religious Reasons?

There’s a fair amount of foucs right now on the right of religious institutions to do as they please, as opposed to the ability of the government to mandate specific behavior from them.

Some years ago, in Wisconsin, an Amish family sought to keep their kids out of public school following the eighth grade. They didn’t claim to be “home-schooling” them – that is, they didn’t claim to be offering equally intensive courses of study at home. Instead, they alleged that high school attendance was contrary to the Amish religion and way of life and that they would endanger their own salvation and that of their children by complying with the law. They planned to offer their children informal vocational training that would prepare them for the rural Amish lifestyle.

Wisconsin’s law provided that schooling was compulsory to age 16.

  1. Should the parents be permitted to make that judgement, notwithstanding the law?

  2. Should the kids in question be given any voice at all in determining their educational fate?

  3. Hi, Opal!

  • Rick

Good question, Bricker. But did the parents actually say that a high school education was contrary to their religion? That seems odd.

On to your questions:

  1. I do think that parents should be allowed to make that distinction, provided they have a legitimate and identifiable purpose to do so.

Education serves the dual interests of educating society’s workforce as well as improving the quality of that society. Obviously, the Amish aren’t members of the general workforce - and as guardians and decision-makers of their children, have ultimate discretion on the direction of their children’s future (was that the sound of a huge can of worms?). The largest compulsory reason to keep these children in school would be for the second state interest - improving the quality of society. But I personally view this aspect of eduction as a secondary purpose (albeit a very significant side effect).

  1. Regarding whether or not the kids should have a say in their decision, they do. They have every right to discuss with their legal guardians plans for their future. But ultimately, until they are 18, they have no rights.

As such, Wisconsin’s law would place an undue burden on the Amish people’s religion (if what you say is true), and would have to make an exception for this segment of society.

No, these parents should not be allowed to make this kind of decision! Automomy be damned, this is ruinous to the future of these kids. I don’t know how schooling can possibly be bad for their children unless it teaches them that cars and technology and such are not evil. I don’t see that their religious views should be allowed to ruin the lives of the children.

The law is that their children are going to go to school until they are 16 and that’s how it should be!

–==the sax man==–

I taught in a school that had a pretty large Amish population, and nearly all of the Amish kids quit after 8th grade, regardless of state law. I say “nearly all,” but frankly I don’t remember any who stayed to graduate.
I don’t know how the law accomodates this–I suppose it would fall under a church/state type conflict–but Amish parents are not required to provide any kind of homeschooling or further education. (They also don’t pay taxes; again, I don’t know how it works, I just know it does.)
As far as it being appropriate: Naturally, I would prefer to see most or all kids finish high school. However, these are not kids who are going to live in mainstream society where they will find themselves jobless and ill-prepared for the real world. Instead, they are going to live in their own small communities, where their lack of a diploma probably won’t have much of an effect on their abilities to obtain work or a decent living.
If a regular-Joe kid quit school after 8th grade, I would be sick at heart, knowing that he is going to have a very hard time making it in the big bad world. When an Amish kid quit, though, I never had the same fears–knowing the community a bit, I know that there is very little risk of him/her ending up on public assistance, barely scraping by. Their “big bad world” is simply not the same as mine, and here, at least, it seems to be carrying on quite well without my intervention.
(Economically speaking, at least.)
regards,
karol

My grandfather didn’t attend public schools after 8th grade. This had nothing to do with religious beliefs of course. Point is I don’t think it ruined his life. I don’t think it ruins the lives of those Amish kids to do something else besides attend high school.

Marc

Correction: they don’t pay some taxes. The Straight Dope Staff speaks.

There is a relevant difference. The world is not the same place that it was in your grandfather’s time. What happens to those kids who are taken out of school at 8th grade and then decide to make a go of it in the big bad world? They have been screwed out of any real chance in life by their crazy parents!

What do they deach in 9th grade that is so terrible anyway?

–==the sax man==–

I think that parents should be allowed to have control over their children’s upbringing, and yes, this includes spanking. We are, after all, legally and financially responsible for the actions of our children while they are still minors, and as such we should be allowed to have some direction as to how our children grow up.
That said…it’s a real shame that some parents want to keep their children as ignorant as possible. That some people want to raise their children as bigoted as possible. That some parents are incredibly unfit to raise a plant, let alone an impressionable child.
But like freedom of speech…I may not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it…shudders at the thought of defending a bigot

The “won’t somebody please think about the children” argument.

Quite frankly, the Amish might claim that you’re ridiculous notions of propriety and lack of religious conviction is far more dangerous than their belief that it is proper to remove children from school. It’s a matter of perspective, and your opinion should carry no more weight (and I’d say less weight) than that of the parents and peers of the children in question.

As a parent, you have a tremendous amount of control over (and responsibility for) your childs future. It takes a set of dedicated parents to raise a child, and in so doing they naturally try to mold the childs morality and religious beliefs to match thier own. If these are the values these parents wish to instill in their children, they have every right to do so. Once the child has attained adulthood, they are free to keep those values they wish, and discard the others.

If these children grow into adults who wish to further their education, there are resources for doing so. The parents in question are acting within the bounds of their religious beliefs, and I don’t think it’s either the right or the responsibility of anyone to “verify” that there is a “legitimate and identifiable purpose” in the parents motive for removing them from school.

But then again, I don’t agree with compulsory “education” for anyone else, either. But that’s a different debate.

No it isn’t the same place. In the late 30’s early 40’s about the only place my grandfather could get an education was in the military. Now days those little Amish kids will have access to GED programs and community colleges.

Marc

No need to hide the ball, Bricker. Wiscinsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972) (holding that the constitutional guarantee of free exercise of religion gives parents the right to keep their children ignorant).

I have to say that I’ve never gotten the impression from the Amish families I worked with that they considered the rest of the world to be evil or awful, or that they were afraid of what we would teach their children once they reached ninth grade.
I’m sure that they (like many parents) would prefer to handle some aspects of education at home. However, I think that it is much more a matter of how they look at kids and maturity levels–an 8th grade Amish kid would be considered (in his or her community) to be nearly an adult, ready to learn a trade or learn to be a homemaker.
It’s an entirely different way of life, and very interesting.

Funny sidenote: When you grow up in Amish country, you don’t give a second thought to seeing horses and buggies tethered outside the local grocery. I remember being so surprised when a new neighbor (recently arrived from Tennessee) told me that she and her husband had spotted a [bold]real![/bold] Amish family, and had taken a detour just so they could watch them drive their buggy! She will never forget the excitement of that moment. :wink:

Yes, my question was drawn directly from the facts in Yoder. But it’s Yoder’s thirtieth anniversary, and, although it’s still good law, the GD question is “should parents be able to…” not “are parents able to…”

I was looking at Yoder, oddly enough, because of the recent scandals in the Roman Catholic Church, and trying to build a case for how much role the government could, and could not have, in interfering with religious practices.

So the question still stands – Yoder stands for the proposition that religious interests trump governmental interests in the area of high school education. Is this a good idea?

  • Rick

Depends on the particular interests, of course. I can see religious practice trumping a school’s interest in keeping a kid in class during noontime prayers, for instance. In such cases, the accommodation places only de minimis limits on the state’s legitimate purpose. But I detest Yoder.

School attendance laws are laws of general applicability and were not designed with any improper discriminatory intent. The First Amendment does not give anyone carte blanche to behave as they see fit so long as the behavior is motivated by religious belief. Where the state’s interest is sufficiently important and the impact on the ability to worship freely is sufficiently small, then the First Amendment should give way to the state interest. Amish children and their parents may worship and believe in any way they see fit–but the children should be in school until the age of 16, as required by the state law.

What if instead of keeping children out of high school, it was a case of keeping kids out of school, period, for religious reasons? Let’s say you have a group of fundamentalist Muslims who believe, with the Taliban, that female children should not be educated.* They’re not running private schools or home schooling the girls in lieu of attending public school, they just plain aren’t educating them.

My gut feeling is that the courts would not consider keeping all females out of school a protected religious practice. Where religiously-neutral government regulation meets contrary religious practice, the rule is a balancing test instead of a bright line. The High Court’s opinion in Yoder was a complex and divided one, and THAT was with the court able to avoid the touchy issue of uneducated children because the Amish were sending their kids to grade school. The balance that favored the parents (or the religion, if you see it that way) when the issue was 4 more years of school would IMHO come out differently when the issue is no school or formal education at all.

To take my lawyer hat off and speak strictly as a citizen, the Yoder decision feels to me like a potentially dangerous decision to support group-based policy. What I mean by that is government dealing with minorities (religious and ethnic, not just racial) and groups as a single whole rather than as individual citizens and families. It seems to protect the Amish’s right to keep its members Amish over the right of the individual child to have an education that may allow them to leave the Amish. Generally speaking, I’m more than a bit wary when people talk about kids in an insular racial, ethnic, or religious group becoming educated and/or exposed to the modern world or general society and choosing to leave that group an as the “dissolution” or “dooming” or “extinction” of the group, with the kid (actually, typically either an adult or near-adult) having been “corrupted” or “seduced” by the modern or outside world. I don’t think we’re engaging in a lot of group-based policy in this country at the level of policy that actually gets adopted and/or implemented, but there seem to be extremists at both the far left and far right of the spectrum that treat certain groups as being entities to deal with (or, more scarily, TO) as a unified whole and not individuals, and push by various methods for policies on that pattern.

Group-based policy seems to create division and strife even where it’s designed to reduce it. Stuff like Lebanon, where the president always had to be of one specific religion, the prime minister of another, and (IIRC) the speaker of the parliament of another. It encourages people to think of others as Muslim, or Druze, or whatever instead of as individuals. Or Rwanda, where IIRC one tribe/ethnic group dominated the army while the other held positions of importance in business – an especially bad combination when “the ones with the guns” see “the ones with the money” as a group (responsible for the actions of the group) and not as individuals.
*I know that’s not generally considered “proper” or “orthodox” Islamic doctrine, but the Taliban think it is. IIRC my ConLaw class in law school, the gov’t can question (where relevant) whether a professed religious belief is really held by the individual in question, but to judge whether an honestly-held religious belief was “real” Islam, or Christianity, or whatever, would violate 1st Amendment-protected freedom of religion.

This is off the OP but related. Can I please have short hijack?

My grandfather, born in 1900(now deceased) had to quit school after the eight grade because his parents(hard-headed farmers!) said “You’re going to be a farmer like us and you don’t need any more education.”

So Grandpa left home at eighteen, went to an auto mechanics school in Kansas City, did a lot of other things over the course of a long life, and was a successful family man. And although he didn’t get any more formal education he read voraciously. I can still hear him reciting long chunks of Longfellow, especially “Evangeline”.

But I still can’t help but wonder. If he had been allowed to at least finish high school, as he had begged his parents to allow, how much further could he have gone? What would he have become? And what if there had even been a chance for (gasp!) college?

Maybe people like the Amish(I don’t actually know any) are afraid not so much that their kids will be exposed to evil as they are to losing them to something else.

And where is the states interest sufficently important to keep them in school until they are 16?

Marc

Yeah, what kind of lame-o society needs its citizens to receive a basic education? :rolleyes:

Believe it or not, minors, or anyone else, do not belong to the State.

And to think that when I said “I can’t go to school, it’s against my religion,” they laughed at me…

Or how about this one: Johnny hasn’t been doing his algebra homework or showed up for any exams, and he’s about to be held back. His parents are still convinced that he knows algebra, so they call up the superintendent: “We demand that you pass our Johnny. He hasn’t been doing homework or taking exams because our religion prohibits studying in the winter. Are you going to change his grades, or are you going to interfere with his salvation and religious freedom?”

Are you going to tell them their religion is bunk?