Should PE grades count towards GPA?

In My Humble Opinion
61

As PE is now constituted, absolutely not. It’s complete bullshit. (Sports in general are already given far more attention and resources than their actual value beyond entertainment.)

Consider the ideal case where each student was given an individually customized, realistic exercise program and graded on their improvement. That would be much better than current PE programs. But it’s still complete bullshit as part of the GPA.

That sounds like an almost complete waste of time.

If actual exercise was so small a part of the grade, why bother with it at all?

Then physical fitness should be a requirement of those jobs, not admission to college or graduating.

That’s an extremely low standard, so it’s useless. If they didn’t go to gym class, they probably didn’t go to many other classes either and wouldn’t have gotten into college anyway.

62

Of course not, but when was the last time you were asked for your grades in any class? PE class grades do have little correlation to actual fitness which is one reason I think that effort should have as much of a part of the grade as it does it any other class. As it is you can’t tell if Timmy is in good shape or if he tries real hard so it is completely worthless. The solution isn’t to change that the grade matters because if it doesn’t then there is no incentive to try.

I’m sorry but I think a job that requires you to be on your feet 12 hours a day lifting 50# sacks is a manual labor job even if you have to have a chemical engineering job to have it. Around here Navajo is the dominant language on the rigs and while there are a couple of guys that it would be beneficial to speak to in their language the crews have to be able to speak English to communicate with each other.

But that is the kicker sometimes you have to have all of the characteristics. It is necessary to be able to do what I did this morning, which is hike 5 miles up and down a mesa to get to a new well location, and then be able to go back to the office and design the well. Or in the case of my buddy who is the mud engineer I was talking about earlier he gets 3 times a day he gets to sit down, while he is doing his lab analysis on the mud he is creating.

Shouldn’t it be possible to look at someone’s grades and know that they are both smart and won’t die the first time you make them work outside? Or should you only be able to tell that someone is smart and if you want them to accomplish something you have to hire them and hope. Like I said at the beginning I don’t think that we need to get rid of foreign language (except in my dream world). We need to realize that there are lots of jobs that require them and it should be possible to look at a transcript and tell if a person is capable of doing the work not just tell that they passed a course that might have some relation.

63

The college get’s a copy of the full transcript, not just the GPA. If what I my guidence counselors told me was correct then admissions offices can simply take the grades for individual classes and recalculate the GPA exlcuding classes they consider irrelevant (usually PE and religion classes).

My school district never gave out real grades in PE. You either got an S(atisfactory) or a Unsatisfactory. Neither counted for out GPA, but if you got a U every quarter you failed PE for the year and would have retake it next year. Everyone got Ss unless you repeatedly did thinks like not change, cut class, or mouth of to the teacher. I didn’t know anyone who actually failed a year, but it was compulsory from grades 1-10 and in grade 12. I think they ended up either having to do double periods next year or find a school that offered PE in summer school.

I should add that none of the male PE teachers I had could actually teach. They all seemed to regard gym class as a way to “scout for talent” for the sports teams. They’d actually say crap like “it’s not my job to teach you this, you should already know how to play X”, “do you want to go play witht the girls/grade schoolers”, “this is pathetic ladies”. PE is important, but poorly taught it’s a complete waste of time. The only think I took away from my 11 yrs worth is a complete loathing of sports.

64

I got a letter grade for my high school PE classes, as well as two art classes. In both cases you were graded on trying and not being a jackass. I have no artistic ability at all and can barely draw a straight line freehand, but I still got A’s for making the effort (at parent-teacher conferences, my art teacher told my dad “He tries; he’s not very good, but he tries.”)

Unless a gym class involves instruction in real physical skills (proper weightlifting form, the rules of golf, whatever), or is a taught as some kind of half PE/half health class, then it should be a pass/fail class at most.

65

Why should they? Or more accurately, why should they “take it into account” any more than they do for Spanish or Math?

I call bullshit. Sorry, but plenty of people who are not naturally gifted at something manage to excel, or at least become proficient, because they work their butts off. You think Jim Abbott was a naturally gifted athlete despite having one hand? Even people like Michael Jordan have to practice all the time to be successful. Being an athlete is one of the most difficult jobs there is. Genes and natural talent only get you so far. Most of what separates normal people from the few among us that can do it for a living is relentless drive and dedication. Far more drive and dedication than the average engineer or architect. Those qualities, even when they don’t rise to the threshold of the pros, should be rewarded.

I would imagine that you, like most people, didn’t try hard enough because you were discouraged, or because it was not important enough to you. Can you honestly tell me you spent as much time practicing any sport as you did an academic subject you enjoyed? Probably not. That’s the main reason why classes like PE should be included in one’s GPA. If a person can’t be bothered push themselves in an area where they are not naturally gifted, it says a lot about their character. Colleges should definitely be concerned with such character flaws.

Anyone can show promise at a sport if they are committed to do so. That’s not to say the average person could become a professional, but they can become good enough that they won’t fall behind in the average gym class. The standards, for the most part, are not that high.

Would anyone here insist that any teacher of an academic subject give grades for effort?

So why should others suffer more for their weaknesses because they are in academic subjects? PE is no more or less important in the grand scheme of things than Calculus is. Moreover, being good at sports is often harder than being good at an academic subject. It requires more practice, commitment, and “study”. It’s often more competitive, and more meritocratic. That’s one reason why so many people are overweight, and in horrible shape. It’s because staying fit is hard. Anyone who can demonstrate some skills in those areas should be rewarded accordingly.

66

It ought to. It’s an unfortunate fact that physical education is often so terrible that this kind of statement has a ring of truth to it. Can anyone imagine hearing “since when does your math grade have anything to do with mathematical ability.”

If it doesn’t, I think the solution is to either fix PE so that it is related to physical fitness, or do away with it altogether.

67

PE grades should count towards the GPA. Sports grades should not.

PE classes should consist of physical education, that is, teaching the student how to maintain and improve the physical health of his/her body. How to do various exercises, how to use various machines of gym equipment, how to select foods, how to know when to go to the doctor, and basic first aid. These are all things that can be measured, and things that will be of use in later life as well as at the time of the class. It’s important to know how to exercise without causing injury. It’s important to learn how to select healthy foods, how to judge portions, how to put together a long term diet plan (not just weight reducing), and just why Cheesy Poofs should be limited to an occasional snack rather than being treated as a staple. This could be set up like the instruction and lab courses that I took in college, with one or two days of the week being devoted to classroom work, and the other three or four days would be spent in the gym or on the field, doing the various exercises. Students would be physically tested at the beginning of the term, and have both classroom and field testing at the end of the term. If they had the basic standards of fitness at the beginning of the semester, they should have stayed at that fitness level or improved it. If they didn’t have the basic standard, they should have improved over the semester. It should count as a core credit. Mostly, it should have different classes for different abilities. For instance, in my high school, we had General Math, Remedial Math, and Advanced Math courses, and students were only eligible for Advanced Math if they’d taken certain prerequisites in middle school or in HS as a freshman or sophomore. This recognizes that everyone needs this skill, but that every kid has different native abilities, and that not everyone can pass the more advanced classes.

Sports, on the other hand, should be treated as the Art Club and Book Club are currently treated. That is, at least one teacher will form the club, and it meets after school. There should be no students who are allowed to skip class to go to practice, the practice is held after school. If it’s accepted as a class, again, nobody gets to skip another class to attend practice, practice is held only during the class time alloted for that course. It shouldn’t count as a core credit, though it could conceivably count as an elective credit.

PE grades should not be dependent upon participating in a sport.

In my high school, female athletes who played on the school team and cheerleaders were pretty much automatically given excellent grades in PE, even if all they did was sit around and gossip, and didn’t bother to dress out. The other girls were expected to actually dress out and participate, and usually didn’t get the fabulous grades that the team players and cheerleaders did.

My husband says that he didn’t bother to show up for most of his PE classes, but he managed to get As in them anyway, as he’d always give the coach/gym teacher a box of cigars sometime during the semester. Apparently that was the price for an A from this guy.

68

GPAs are essentially useless unless you know the quality of the instructor and the quality of the protoplasm being taught.

At my high school PE instructors were sports-minded coaches whose own academic skills were dubious.

There is good reason why standardized exams do a better job, on average, than GPAs of sorting out the bright from the dim, or at least how much knowledge transfer was accomplished and retained.

69

:dubious:

How much education is really needed to keep in shape? Eat less and run more. There’s no need to talk about it, just get outside and run around. It seems that actually getting kids running around during PE, playing sport, is the best that can be done.

70

I would imagine the teachers didn’t actually teach him: there are techniques to athletic ability, and they can be taught–for some kids, physical things come fairly easily–they have an intuitive grasp of how to go about figuring out how to make their bodies do something. Others do not and benefit from instruction. I’ve seen coaches do this for sports (“hold your leg like this” or “here, move your arm this way”), but they never seem to do it for PE–for PE, they maybe tell you the rules to a game and then throw you out there. Would anyone here approve of a teacher in an academic subject handing out workbooks and then sitting in the back all period?

I really like how the district I teach at does rank. You get a certain number of rank points for each class, your numerical average (79 or 92 or whatever) multiplied by a weighting factor based on the level of the class (AP, pre-AP, Regular, or Local Credit). These are added up and not divided. This prevents two problems you get with GPA’s: one, the difference between a 79 and an 80 is the same as that between an 80 and an 81, and two, by never averaging you don’t penalize students who take unweighted courses (in traditional GPA systems, the kid who takes 6 AP classes and then has early release ends up with a higher potential GPA than the kid who takes 6 AP classes and band or drama or football).

71

Except it’s so much more fun to do something when you are good at it–otherwise it’s frustrating and a chore. The way to “get . . . kids running around during PE” is to teach them how to be successful. Sure, some will always be more talented than others, but people can be taught to improve.

72

Yes and No.

No - the grade should not be included in the GPA. The GPA should be the average based on academics.

Yes - successful completion of PE should be required for graduation. We’ve got way too many lardass kids as is; giving them some exercise will only help improve their grades overall. Mens sana in corpore sano.

73

Errrr, no. That’s my point. Kids (and adults) have to learn about how to exercise, just as much as they need to learn how to use language. It’s no good to just throw books at a kid, saying “read this stuff”, and expecting that the kid will learn how to appreciate language.

For instance, the goals and techniques of cardiovascular training differ considerably from weight training, yet both can and should be incorporated into maintaining and improving physical fitness. Many boys, especially, are interested in weight training, not only to improve strength, but to become more muscular. Both sexes need to learn about cardiovascular health, and how it affects the whole body, and how it’s related to stamina in even everyday life. And it’s no good to say “Just keep your calories below (1000, 1500, 2000) a day in order to maintain your weight”, when a kid might choose to eat nothing but the aforementioned Cheesy Poofs. Everyone needs to learn how to build a balanced diet, and how to include occasional snacks and treats into this diet.

Also, in many of my PE classes, we played a sport during the class period. When playing something like baseball, or team volleyball, or similar sports, that meant standing around, waiting for the ball to come to you, and there was actually very little exercise involved.

74

Disagree completely. Active kids (i.e. those who actually leave their houses and play outside with their mates, and those that participate in PE sessions as opposed to standing around doing nothing) are in perfectly good shape. Nobody needs to know about the intricacies of cardiovascular exercise to keep a decent standard of fitness.

Besides, there’s no better way to alienate your students (i.e. the overwhelming majority who enjoy playing sport in PE) by turning their run-around session into a borefest on muscle groups and the cardiovascular system.

75

There is another way to alienate them: give the kids who already have skills the opportunity to improve (because they know enough to benefit from more practice) while the kids without skills and no idea how to use practice fall further and further behind until every session the activity seems more futile and humiliating.

Sports can be taught. Dads don’t just take their kids into the backyard and throw things at them, they actually show them how to throw the ball, how to catch–football coaches at any high school spend hours watching tapes of games to discover small things their players can do to be better and then they communicate these things to their players.

I agree that you don’t just lecture kids on nutrition and exercise, but you can help them be better at activity, and that will encourage them to play. And then you can work in information about healthy lifestyles and eating habits–after all, we aren’t teaching children, we are teaching future adults.

76

I can’t speak for other subject areas, but if you want to do a PhD in history in just about any university in the country, you’ll be required to demonstrate reading proficiency in at least one language besides English.

In my history grad program, even those studying US or British history were required to have a second language, and those studying European, Latin American, or Medieval history were generally required to have 2 or more in addition to English.

As for PE being a part of your GPA, i would argue against it, or at the very least i would want a system like the one described by silenus where it could be disaggregated from the academic grades.

When i went to high school in Australia, the only grades that determined your entry to college were those received in grades 11 and 12, and in our school PE was only offered up until grade 10, so it was never an issue in terms of college admission or anything like that.

77

I see no reason why it shouldn’t be included. I never put anything from the accounting class to use, and nothing in my life changed for having learned what a covalent bond was in chemistry. A year and a half of french, and I can barely remember how to count to 10. I have, however, played some of the games I learned in PE with my nephew.

Which class was most useful?

78

We never learned anything like this in PE. Unless it was a made-up-for-gym-class sport the teachers never bothered to explain the rules and tended to get very annoyed if anybody asked. I was like winterhawk11, father not interested in athletics (unless Nascar and tractor-pulling count), never played any kind of team sport outside of gym class (not even “for fun” with friends), both of my brothers were into sports, but they were also 13 and 17 years older than me (& I’ve never been close to either) and I never had any interest in sports even as a spectator. I’ve never gotten over my instinct to duck or out of the way whem something is thrown at me. The one PE activity I liked was when they let us use the excercise machines or lift weights, but they didn’t like to do that too often because we “weren’t learning anything” :mad:. Strength training was offered as an elective, but you had to play a sport to take it and it didn’t get you out of gym.

It retrospect it’s clear the administration really didn’t care about PE (and if they didn’t why the hell should any of the students). There was zero seperation by ability (unlike every other class). We just were assigned a class wherever it fit into our schedule (which mean that every class had a random mixture of freshmen, sophmores, & seniors). The grading system left no real incentive to bother trying to improve. The boys’ teachers (of which there were always 3 or 4 compared to the 1 girls teacher) were hired to coach sports teams, teaching PE was a distraction for them. I hated them all. They didn’t have a clue how to deal with unathletic boys who weren’t interested in making the football team. None of the other teachers ever commented on one’s shortcomings infont of everybody like they did. “Motivation” consisted mostly of attacks on our masculinity. I hated them all. Every single time were allowed to choose between the activity run by one of them and the one run by the girls’ teacher I picked her. She was nice and would actually teach. What was the point of all that? If make students with who weren’t interested in sports in the first place actively hate then it worked. :rolleyes:

79

I completely agree with this statement - and would love to read that personal statement. That sounds like great fun.

I sat on the admissions committee for a competitive school for a year as a student member. By the time an application had made it past the initial screening stages, all the GPAs and test scores were good. Everyone had proved their academic chops, and we were basically evaluating candidate to determine if they were an interesting person, had something to offer, had a compelling life’s story, etc.

On the top end of education, GPA and test scores don’t matter if you are a serious candidate for admission. And yes, we re-calculated the GPAs ourselves. My high school did some funny business where AP courses were worth extra, so hypothetically you could have a greater than 4.0 GPA.

With regards to gym class - I personally think it’s important and should remain required, although I remember a lot of frustration when I had to take it as a student. I ran varsity sports all four years of high school - it was pretty much a year round thing with summer practices, winter practices, etc. etc. Gym seemed to be a bunch of annoying girls standing around because they didn’t want to get sweaty and the boys showing off for each other (and the girls). I spent a lot of time wishing they’d count my sports team towards my PE class.

80

Or it may mean someone has realized that it is generally a more efficient use of your time and energy to get better at something you are good at than it is to try to eliminate your weaknesses.

But if someone really would die from working outside, that almost certainly means they have a disability of some sort. In academic classes, we don’t make people with a disability do the same things as people who don’t, and we shouldn’t in phys ed, either.

Also, you’d only know from PE grades that, had you hired this person right out of high school, they would have been able to work outside. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they are able to work outside now, especially if they’ve been out of high school for many years.