Should people with no children pay taxes for schools?

Great Debates
41

I was looking to see if someone would catch that one…

In a way I’m fortunate that in my jurisdiction there is no way to know which of my tax dollars is going to what. All my property taxes & local sales taxes go into the municipal General Fund, and all my state personal income and sales taxes go into the state GF. So for all I know my taxes are funding the landscaping in the park, or are paying for schools, or bought an ambulance.

The OP argument, cutting to the core of it, is not really why he (or I) should support public schools, being childless ourselves. It’s whether the concept of universally-available *tuition-free * public education as we now know it should even exist!

At some point in the past couple of centuries, some earlier group of We The People decided that one of the best ways of assuring the general welfare, justice, prosperity, blessings of liberty, etc. was to have a populace that all had at least a basic education, and for that purpose they established that some amount of education would be *compulsory ** * for all. Now, then they figued, if the body politic makes schooling universally compulsory, well then it had better provide a way to make some of it available even to those who cannot pay market value for it. Thus, public schools. Funded by the general population, not just by parents of children, first so as to spread the impact across the broadest possible range, and second so that everyone is a stakeholder in the working of the system.

I see, Mace, that you wisely base the idea of “requiring middle class parents to pay” for education upon a “child tax” – because it would be absurd to** order** someone to pay tuition/user fees because he’s middle class, only to have the tuition impoverish him, wouldn’t it? – but you do realize that with the fractions of humanity that (a) have or will have or expects to some day have children and that (b) may be poor, or middle class upper or lower, but certainly not consider themselves “wealthy”, being somewhere in the 90+ percents, that is going to be a seriously hard sell? (Even the so-called School Choice Advocates want to be able to take their kid out of public school and send him to private school… but with our money! Real slick…) It’s stirring to see someone stand up so for a cause in which he must know he’ll be outnumbered, outvoted, outgunned, outeverythinged :cool:

And BTW re: something I saw earlier on the thread – these days, even for unskilled trade work, you WANT someone with a certain level of education, because you, employer of the unskilled, do want someone who is capable of understanding and following verbal and written instructions and having a rough idea that someone walking in door is talking about something he should tell you, of communicating to you any problem they encounter with some degree of sophistication beyond “da round thingy it go boing-boing”, of being able to properly add up what you’re paying him, etc. And just as a matter of principle, **you don’t want the population segment of ignorant illiterates to be any larger than it already is. ** Just to fight THAT containment action I accept being stuck with a piece of the bill.

42

Let’s see. For 28 out of the total of 36 years my siblings and I were in elementary and secondary schools, our parents paid out of their own pockets to send us to private school. And throughout that time, they consistently voted for every public school tax measure that was on the ballot. So not only did they pay for their kids’ education, they were paying for schools for other people’s kids that they didn’t even use.

My father was the child of immigrants and my mother grew up poor. Both of them figured out early on that the only way they could pull themselves out of their early disadvantage was by getting whatever education they could obtain from the tax supported public educational system.

They did pretty well for themselves. They thought other people ought to have that chance, as well.

ETA
In other words, it was part of the social compact.

43

Catch what? Catch that we have a program for nutrition that is exactly what I’m suggesting we consider for education?

We don’t have to force people to feed their children well (or as well as they can) because almost every wants to do that. Same for education. Are there really that many people who can afford to pay for their kids education who wouldn’t do so on their own? People pay as much as they can for a house, often because it’s in a good school district.

Now, there was a time in the past when most everyone married and most everyone had as many kids as they could. In that case, everyone really was in the same boat. But that’s not the case any more. I will gladly admit that converting from our current system, embedded in our society as it is, to a different one might well cause more problems than it would fix. However, the idea that we have hit on exactly the right system, and it wouldn’t make sense to do something different if we were starting from scratch now isn’t a very compelling argument.

44

I’m sure you have wonderful parents, and I mean no disrespect, but “this is what my parents did” (paraphrasing) is not an argument that can win a debate.

45

Public education isn’t for the benefit of parents. It’s for the benefit of the students. So anyone who went to a public school should pay taxes; society paid for your education and you should now pay into the same system.

Even those who didn’t go to a public school should still pay into the system. As others have said, society as a whole benefits when people are well educated.

46

“Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society.” – Oliver Wendell Holmes

47

That taxes from all of us pay for a program that aids* some * people, even if WE never make use of that program. If we ran the public schools as a means-tested program like WIC or housing subsidies, it would be free to the poor and charging tuition to the not-poor, but it would still take taxes from all. The OP would still be unsatisfied.

Now, as to the part that parents will do whatever it takes to get a good school for their kids – if you want to do away with compulsory universal education, not just public-funded universal education, I could see your argument better: is that what you’re saying?

48

I’m not trying to “win” this debate. I’m simply saying that some people believe there is such a thing as a social compact, and are willing to put their money behind it.

BTW, I’m a middle-class guy, and I don’t own a plasma TV.

49

I just thought this was worth highlighting again. Your position, John, is a reasonable one (although not one I agree with – “programs for the poor are poor programs,” and all that), but the OP wasn’t saying that public schooling should be means tested – he’s saying that he shouldn’t pay for it at all! There’s no reason to think that if he’s only paying for poor people to go to school that he’d be any happier.

50

Shouldn’t we wait until he pays to join before answering his questions?

51

Maybe. OTOH, maybe he would feel better about that system than the current one. I recognize that the OP is offering a not-so-well-thought-out proposal, but I do think there is more to this issue than either all or nothing.

No, I’m just saying that you can have compulsory education without a public school system funding thru taxes. For instance, in CA everyone who drives is required to obtain auto insurance. But the state doesn’t run an auto insurance program for anyone.

Anyway, maybe I’m giving the OP too much of the benefit of the doubt, but he doesn’t strike me as some troll coming in here to stir up shit-- he’s just asking a few questions. At least up to this point. I’m as quick to go after a troll as anyone else.

Fair enough. But we are debating, so let’s be clear. You believe there is a social contract, but you have to do more than state it to convince me. I believe there is social responsibility if there is a social contract-- if you bring kids into this world, you need to be prepared to take care of them. Sure, we (society) will step in when bad things happen and parents can’t take of there kids, but most of the time we shouldn’t need to do that.

52

How about this “outside the box” thinking. We hold it to be an American ideal that every child should receieve a quality free public education. Now one could argue that many groups of children have been denied this in the past (and maybe still are), but that doesn’t change the fact that the CONCEPT of every child going to school for free is part of the American fabric.

Let’s look at elections. If I (along with 86% of the population) choose not to vote, then publicly funded elections do not personally benefit me. But the ideal of a impartially-run election and maintaining our form of representative democracy and incumbant willing to give up their office if their opponent wins is one of the things that makes this AMERICA.

You don’t pay for our educational system to get a benefit. You pay because you’re an AMERICAN.

My next point would be that anyone who views education cost using cost-benefit analysis is sadly misled. There are NO TANGIBLE BENEFITS to a public educational system, but when some public-schooled doctor discovers a cure to cancer and can save your life, you’d be glad for paying all those tax levies.

53

I think the debate has gotten a bit off track… I never suggested(and have not seen anyone else in this thread who has) that we deny people education. I am simply proposing that the people that get the most benefit of it, bear the burden of the cost.

If a child gets a great education and becomes a lawyer, he gets wealth and security. And their parents benefit from having a successful child who can provide for them when they get old. Sure I might get legal services from this person, but the fact is, the lawyer and the parents get MUCH more out of this than I could ever hope. So why should I pickup an equal amount of the tab?

If the child does not get an education, he may become the guy that mows my lawn. Sure its not as good as being a lawyer, but I am still benefiting by getting my grass cut.

54

Well, somebody paid to educate you.

55

Well, I for one would think that what he “receives” from society is mostly not a product of other people’s benevolence - his gain isn’t necessarily someone else’s loss. Society isn’t a zero-sum game, you know, invisible hand and all of that.

56

I could see a surcharge tax for those who have more than the average number of children in the public school system.

My Dad’s biggest rant was that he had two children and paid the same school taxes as the family down the block who had 11. I have to say that I agree with that rant.

57

I’m not sure I understand the logic. If someone with 11 should pay more than someone who has 2, then shouldn’t someone with 2 pay more than someone who has 0? Zero is bound to be way less than average.

58

Even if you never go to prison, do you get some benefit out of it?

Does your property value increase with the quality of a nearby school, even if you have no children attending?

There’s a good reason we distribute the cost of public schools to all citizens: Because an educated population is a net benefit to everyone in a society. And while you may not be suggesting that we deny people education, this would IMO be the inevitable effect of instituting a “pay for it yourself” system.

59

I think the easy answer to the OP when he asks “why should I?” Is that it’s a civic responsibility we as a society have taken on. As John Mace says, that may not be a reason to look at the system with an uncritical eye (perhaps it’s all the more reason, in fact), but I think there’s an argument to be made that making sure its children are educated appropriately is a worthwhile endeavor for a society. It’s healthy for us as individuals and for society as a whole for us to do things for others even if they don’t benefit us directly.

60

Families with kids do pay a “surcharge”. Kids’ supply lists are pretty long in some school districts, although it varies wildly. Some families shell out $75/kid at the beginning of the year, some pay more, others less. Some families with more means buy extra supplies to help those who can’t afford them. And then there are fall fundraisers, winter fundraisers, spring fundraisers, book sales, bake sales, candy sales, card sales, and lots of volunteering by mothers and fathers.