Can the move towards private schools be harmful?

Great Debates
1

A friend of mine is thinking of putting his kids into private school once they finish at the local elementary public branch. Around here, that seems to be the thing to do, even though the crime rate is very low and school problems are minor.

Nationwide, there is a movement to put kids in private school to get them away from the ‘corruption and danger’ of public facilities and I have strong misgivings about this.

In my opinion, essentially what will happen is that when the population of the schools falls because of people who can placing their kids into private ones, the public school funds will be cut – again --, the quality will fall, – again – and the slow recovery will stop. Eventually, the public schools will become nightmares of poorer education because only those who cannot afford private school will be using them.

This has happened before, in England ages ago and right here in the States and created a vast rift between the haves and the havenots in the area of education.

In my opinion, they need to concentrate on cleaning up the public schools, straighten up the problems they have allowed to develop and start returning the funds they have ‘stolen’ from them. When I went to school in the 60s, our system here was about the top in the States, now we’re one of the worst. Stop tying the teachers hands, get in the supplies and equipment needed and teach our kids the way they are supposed to be taught. Pay the teachers more and stop passing kids who are not qualified to pass. Start blocking and stopping frivolous lawsuits because some kid was required to take a drug test or his locker was searched and get on with the business of letting our educators educate.

Shipping a large amount of the population of kids into private school creates a separation of the public, which, in my opinion, will later create lack of empathy for those unable to get a private education and a resentment towards those who could.

2

Are you suggesting that people not be allowed to send their children to Private schools?

Another option here is that the public schools, which often complain of overcrowding, will have some pressure taken off them and can perhaps decrease class size.

Would more students in the public school system make them better?

3

If the public schools inspire a lack of public confidence, wouldn’t one expect there to be reason?

If the reason is legitimate, then the move to private schools is not a bad thing, because there are real problems being addressed, and the children are receiving an education in a way that avoids the lacks in said public school system.

If the reason is not legitimate, then in theory, that would be a bad thing. However, even if on the surface it appears that the reason is not legitimate, there are two questions that must be raised that should cause people to re-evaluate that conclusion:

[ul][li]If the public school is free, and private schools require payment, and the public school is equal in quality and content to the private school, why are people willing to pay for a service that they could get for free?[/li][li]If the public school staff is composed of able educators, why are they unable to educate the public as to the advantages of their school, or lack of advantages of the private school?[/li][/ul]

4

I think what Sentinel was referring to was the possible stigma of public schooling being of lower quality and the negative aftershocks of a mass migration to private schools.
Certainly anything that can make public education better, whether it is improving teacher/student ratios or increased funding, etc., is good news to concerned parents and educators. Some people tend to be like lemmings when it comes to their children; instead of researching the best situation for one particular child, they become anxious that they are missing out on something other parents have an ‘in’ on. As a parent, I can say that quality education is of supreme importance to me, but it also has many factors. I grew up in the public school system and while I don’t believe that ‘what was good for me is good enough for my kids,’ I think there are advantages to public education.
I am NOT knocking private education. I think it is the parents’ choice as well. As long as it is made with regards to what is best for the child.

5

One could argue it’s not a bad thing from the point of view of the child involved, because that one child will perhaps receive a better education, but it’s bad for society in general, because the most involved parents (those that would push for a change in public schools, participate in school activities and PTA meetings, etc…) will presumably be the ones putting their children in the private school, thus reinforcing the cycle to increase the quality of schools for the privileged (read: rich) and decrease the quality of schools for the people who can’t afford a private school.

The time and money spent in making a private school would be put to better use if it were destined for the improvement of public schools. I think one of the roles of society is in providing every citizen with equal opportunities.

6

Be careful when using this term. Not everyone has an equal opportunity to attend private school just as not everyone has an equal opportunity to own a mansion, take the concord to Paris or buy a private jet.

But, therre is nothing stopping anyone from doing these things. It is government’s (Which is what I assume you mean by society) job not to guarantee that everyone has this type of opportunity, but rather to make sure that it does not inhibit or prevent them from doing these things.

see the difference? Government should not say “no poor people are allowed to go to private school”. It also should not say “we are going to make sure that everyone can attend private school.”

By the way, I am a product of private school and my parents were certainly not rich. They scrimped and sacrificed to put me through private school. YOu see, they wanted my to have more opportunity than they did and education provided the vehicle to achieve that.

This is the American dream, no?

7

I attended private school. It cost my parents $135 a month.

The only problem with private schools is that some of them give out diplomas that aren’t recognised by the state. My school was that way, so according to the state of Ohio, I dropped out of school in sixth grade. My school actually prided itself on not being accredited or having any state testing while assuring my parents that colleges would be all over me when I graduated. They were partially right: I had Bible colleges stalking me, but a decent college wouldn’t touch me with a ten foot pole without some kind of standardized testing, such as an SAT. And, because my school focused primarily on religious indoctrinization rather than academics, there’s no way in hell I could get anything but a laughable grade on an SAT. I never had any advanced mathematics-- didn’t even TOUCH on algebra. If I were not an avid reader my knowledge of science would be nonexistant, and my history at a third-grade leval. We were forbidden from reading literature other than what was on their approved list. * Heidi * was tenth-grade literature at my school, and even that book had a disclaimer inside the front cover. (Almost got expelled once because a teacher searched my backpack and found a copy of * Gone With the Wind. * From their reaction, you would have thought it was Rushdie’s * Satanic Verses *.) We were taught that dinosaurs existed alongside humans and that carrying insurance was a sin of not having faith in God.

I kept telling my parents of the deplorable academic standards, and that the highest accomplishemnt of their graduates was that one was manager of the local McDonald’s, but the school kept assuring my parents that they had the highest academic standards-- much higher than a mere public school. I told my parents flatly that the school was lying through their teeth on that one, and my mother looked at me with shock, saying “They’re Christians! They don’t * lie.” * Ahh, the gullibility that screwed my future . . .

So, please, Sentinel, have your friend check out the school CAREFULLY before he proceeds. There are some really good privae schools out there, but there are a lot of duds as well.

8

To bring this discussion BACK to the OP, yes, I do think that the move towards private schools can be harmful. Anytime you lower confidence in something as well as decrease funds, its going to decrease in quality.

But the fact is, the public school system needs a good shakedown. Right now, it sucks. Across the board. There are excellent teachers out there, and excellent programming for education. Unfortunately, many schools don’t realize they can afford them.

For instance, I have a friend doing an impact study on a public school in Chicago. The teachers were all fired during the year. Every last one of them. They had to reapply to get their jobs back. Only the ones that really wanted to teach came back. They instituted an integrated curriculum that absolutely amazes me. Every single class subject is related to each other for a particular grade level.

In SS, a class could be doing a project on state government. In math, that class would do lessons on taxes, budgets, etc. In english, they would write letters to their representatives and read stories with similar subjects. This is how education can be revamped, folks. Talk to your local school council if you’re interested.

Connor

9

As I said when the idea of privatizing part of my university was brought up:

The purpose of a general education is to give people the mental tools to participate as citizens in a democracy. If some citizens are able to purchase a better education, they are able to purchase their superiority as citizens. This contravenes the equality that is necessary for a democracy to function. Therefore, private general-education schools (elementary, secondary, and liberal arts university) are violations of democracy.

10

No question, of course, that the state of public schools everywhere is pitiable. The solution is adequate funding, not a two-tiered system.

11

The only thing that scares me with regards to private schools is that they really aren’t bound by the same rules that public schools are. If, in a worst case situation, the majority of people try to go to private schools(causing a serious decrease in the funding/quality of public schools) what is to prevent these schools from A)discrimination in admissions, B)teaching religious indoctrination/leaving out crucial information, or C)just acting like jerks to the students?

(Ok, so perhaps C doesn’t sound like a convincing argument, but the rules on what a school could and couldn’t do with regards to dress/free speech/etc was the only thing that made my HS years even remotely bearable. The private schools I’ve seen are often mass conformity factories-this sort of thing happens in public HS’s yes, but there’s a difference between what a community imposes upon itself, and an authority dictating certain behaviors.)

12

I find the theory intriguing that private schools could hurt public schools. But something just struck me: IF only the top 20% of income earners can afford private school, less than 20% of the students will leave public school. This probably wouldn’t hurt the public schools since the taxes for schools will most likely not change.

But another interesting aspect of this debate is that there is an argument that competition for money would make things worse. Isn’t it possible that the public schools would have to try harder to lure students?

Another possibility is that less expensive private schools could pop up to take advantage of this shift, but there is a limit to how inexpensive you can make education.

13 
 Good thing the United States wasn't set up as a democracy. Some citizens are able to purchase better widgets then others and that's just a fact of life down here. Some people here do not value education whether it be public or private. Others, such as Asian Americans, value it highly and it shows in their test scores and college admissions. It isn't just a matter of being able to afford a better education it is a matter of valuing that education.

Marc

14

So, what, matt, you feel that nobody should ever be permitted to have more than someone else? To purchase or achieve more?

What if one person in college majors in business and another in art history? Whoops–suddenly the business major is better at making money. Can’t have that! Now everybody has to major in the same thing.

In fact, we can’t really have colleges at all! Some people might not be smart enough to make it in, after all, so we either have to eliminate it altogether, or make the admission and degree requirements so low as to be meaningless.

“Violation of democracy.” Sheesh.

15 
 You don't think parents are bright enough to decide whether a school is good for their child or not? If a private school wants to discriminate I guess they can do that. If they want to teach religious indoctrination they're allowed to do that as well. I can decide whether or not to send my child there. I have more freedom of choice with private schools then I do with public schools.

Marc

16

The “mass exodus” will not happen, IMO, but should in no way be seen as a threat to Society.

Why not a mass exodus? Private schools can not handle it - not enough of them to take the number of students from public schools which can be called “mass”. Most private schools already have waiting lists.
But would this be a bad thing for society? If citizens of this country believe that public schools are not teaching our children what they need to know, they should take their kids out if they can, and improve their chances in life by improving their education. The idea of more funds for a
failing system is not a great one:

matt_mcl said:

“No question, of course, that the state of public schools everywhere is pitiable. The solution is adequate funding, not a two-tiered system.”

Matt, I hardily disagree. A school district in our area receiving the highest per-pupil funds also turns out the lowest test scores. (Suasalito, CA, according to their own records). I know that schools must have proper funds to accomplish their goals, but this current system of public schools will continue to mis-use the funds they get - no accountability at all. They will start 50 special programs, fail to teach basic math and reading, and claim they do not have “proper funds”. I vehemently dis-agree with you on this point. Having attended public schools though high school, college/university, I have seen all of this first hand. The countless accounts of my classmates and my own experience tells me the current system is not setup for the students success.

There are individual examples where (emphasis on “individual”) public schools turn out excellent results. Take Lowell High School in S.F., CA - public school; huge number of students; same conditions as all other public schools; but continues to turn out excellent results. The difference? They require participation in classes, attendance, mimimum grades, etc. You must have a minimum GPA to get in, and you do not pass a class without serious effort. This is a public school, every public school can do this, but they choose not to. They choose the “feel good” approach instead, and fail their students.

matt_mcl said:

The purpose of a general education is to give people the mental tools to participate as citizens in a democracy. If some citizens are able to purchase a better education, they are able to purchase their superiority as citizens. This contravenes the equality that is necessary for a democracy to function. Therefore, private general-education schools (elementary, secondary, and liberal arts university) are violations of democracy.

Again, I strongly dis-agree. Democracy does not guarantee equality. Democracy should guarantee equality of opportunity, but not results! Matt, I would like to see every child in this world get the love, attention and education they need. If every parent in this world would simply commit to do this, it would be a better place. Society as a whole should not raise children, and society as a whole will never guarantee the proper childhood for every child. It’s all we can do to keep kids out of abusive situations, never mind guaranteeing their happyness and quality of education into adulthood. Public Schools could do MUCH MORE for children, but not if we continue to allow them the abuses they get away with now… Anyway, I got way off the point, I wanted also to comment on your statement that Private Schools are a violation of Democracy! Wow, that’s a whole debate in itself, but please take another look at this! How can private education violate democratic priciples when demoracy allows every person the freedom to choose for themselves? Besides, your statements sound much more like socialism than democracy, please tell me if i’m wrong.

Sheesh, this post is too long, I apologize. I have a lot more to say but I’ll save it…

Sili

17

Purchasing a superior education is not the same thing as having a superior computer. Education is the provision of the tools to operate in a democracy, like I said. That being the case, being able to purchase a better education than another citizen is like being able to purchase a second vote.

18

Oh? What was it set up as, then? A dictatorship? A plutocracy?

19

Gee, I wasn’t aware that poor lowly me with a bachelor’s degree only gets one vote, and my friend with a PhD gets 2. :rolleyes:

20

I would imagine (or at least hope! :wink: ) that it’s because they spend their time and effort trying to educate their students instead of the public. Are you suggesting the public schools should spend money on PR men? Would that be an efficient use of public school resources? It’s essential for a private school to get good PR, but I’m inclined to think that it would be considered a waste of money for public schools to do the same thing.