mat_mcl: The US is a * republic, * not a democracy.
It was set up as a Constitutional Republic. The rights of individuals are suppose to be protected from the tyranny of the majority as well as the minority. In a democracy we are all at the mercy of the majority. But as you said you're Canadian.
Marc
hehe our school has about the lowest money per student in the country. I still get a decent education since teachers are so underpaid though. Cant pay teachers more… gotta buy those 50 new computers so i can play quake:). Of course my 2nd period ran out of material to do so we either play chess killer instinct or goldeneye(only one tv though:(). And today we had a nice rubber band fight:)
Regardless i dont put too much faith in education. I mean really right now you can make alot more alot sooner if you just learn C++
Well, it certainly is nice to see Mr. Sentinel a bit cooler in the head after that horrible smoking thing. I spent my whole life in public schools, except for my junior and senior years which I am spending in a prominent military academy. As a senior, I plan on continuing my military career at a southern military college (which one? I won’t tell).
I hated public school. The public schools I went to have been heralded as some of the finest the country has to offer, and yet I failed through all my years there. Fat, undisciplined, spoiled, and lacking a sense of identity, I found myself surrounded (granted, this is leaning towards my high-school years) by young adults all trying to find a place to fit in in the world. Some went “ghetto”, wearing baggy clothes, smoking, using poor grammar and telling off teachers. Others went “prep”, wearing A&F clothes, teasing those who did not fit in. There were “goths”, and “prep-wannabees”, and the list goes on and on. I was not happy. I wonder if anyone is happy in high school.
This is where my oppinion jumps in, unfortunately. I blame the media. With stations like MTV, movies like “Can’t Hardly Wait”, shows like “Party of Five”, I think that teens are turning to the media for guidance. My peers emulate what they see, and it is sad, because some do it with such ease and others will struggle for their entire high school career to match up. To say that this is a new problem to this generation is inaccurate, as the television has always been such a source of influence. Things are changing though, and I don’t think anybody is going to dispute me on that.
Sex, violene, drug-use, I won’t lie, I think they belong on the screen. What makes film so great is the magic of escape the viewer feels when watching. However, things are taking a turn for dark as young people are exposed to more and more extremes of humanity, and thus emulate them out of lack of guidance. I KNOW that what we watch can influence our emotions. Having discovered my patriotism, I know that I could storm any hill for America after watching “Saving Private Ryan”, or die to save the Earth after watching “Armageddon” (try and keep a straight face here).
But what of those with a different set of values? What of those teens (and there are many) who do not understand love or friendship or brotherhood, and only feel alienated and bitter? What do they feel when they watch a trench-coat clad Keanu Reeves take out security gaurds in “The Matrix”, or Woody Harrelson in “Natural Born Killers”? I can watch these movies and be entertained, but others may watch them and feel something different, something darker.
My point is that young people turn to the media for guidance. The media has become more graphic in recent years, it is nearing a point where only a candid rape or snuff film may actually provoke a viewer into outrage. The lighter, trendier side of media influences those who can emulate it, as we can see Jennifer Love Hewitt clones parade the hallways of high-schools. And what about the girls too fat for the tight shirt, or too poor to buy a 60 dollar sweater? Where do they turn for identity?
As your live eyewitness, I can tell you the situation is bad. It is a shame that a country so fine as the USA has such problems in its schools. Can private schools help? Absolutely.
My school molded me into a repsonsible young man, full of pride and discipline. It did not brainwash me, or teach me war tactics or something silly like that. It only gave me a chance to sink my claws into an identity within a system. Only a fool takes no pride in being disciplined, confident, anxious for success in the real world. Uniforms, structure, a code of offenses and punishments, corps pride, an honor system, all these things are part of my everyday life, and they are just what a smart young person looking for peace in a chaotic world need. This is a private school, and without it, I probably would have attempted suicide again…and could have succeeded. It was my private window, giving me a lucid, beautiful view of my potential in the real world.
I will not pretend to know the answers to the problems faced in public schools, for such an attempt would be as foolish as me trying to read an alien language. I simply do not know. But there is a problem, believe me there, in our public school systems. It’s a damn shame too. A private school, a private military academy, turned me into someone my entire family respects. It tought me to respect myself. The benefits of a private education are numerous, and meritorious.
A Proud Cadet
Private schools have been around for ages and while I’ve heard both pros and cons concerning them, I rarely paid them much attention until recently. Not too long ago, I read something about vouchers going to be given to X number of minority and underprivileged children so they could attend private schools, while everyone else got to pay their own way.
The money, from what I understand, for the vouchers came out of funds which could have been used to help the public school system.
The sudden increase in private schools started when crime jumped up on the public school ground, which happened shortly after Children’s Rights groups made sure that no authority could A: physically touch or discipline a child, B: violate their ‘civil rights’ by requesting drug tests, C: search their locker for drugs and weapons – which somehow, though owned by the school, became the student’s property, D: resisted conformity in clothing and dress, stating a violation of the child’s creativity and personal freedom, and E: Parents started suing the school and teachers when the children were made to listen or to stop doing disruptive things.
Then schools went to hell in a handbasket. Shortly after the first school shooting, parents started sending their kids to private schools and other parents – plus the private schools themselves (smelling major bucks here), started encouraging this action. When more trouble broke out on public school grounds, the mass migration started.
Essentially, the struggling public school system is being left to those who cannot afford to get out of the danger zone, which indicates that politicians, especially those here in Florida, will note the decrease in numbers attending and promptly cut funding to greedily use elsewhere. (EXAMPLE: Look how much of the Florida Lottery, which was supposed to go to the school system, has been siphoned away, leaving Florida schools begging for Federal assistance.)
My concern is that the rift between the rich and poor will widen even further this way, along with the drop in the quality of public education. I recall when Black schools locally got second hand everything from the local public school system until integration. Now, there seems to be a very great possibility that having a public school education might turn into a ‘second hand’ one.
I disliked public school, BUT the life experiences were invaluable and I was lucky enough to get through school while the Florida Educational system was top notch. The Monasauri (sp?) system was developed then and there was speculation about including it in the public school system. No one sued the school because their kid got spanked, or was told to get a drug test or had his locker searched. Teachers were OBEYED. Parents backed up the educators. Dress codes were lenient, but not as lenient as today. (No kids were allowed to wear beards, none could wear shirts of a racial nature nor of any radical form. Clothing was a required to be neat, hair could not go below the shoulders nor could one wear odd hair styles like the asymmetrical types I’ve seen, and your book bags could be searched at any time.) That still left ample room for self expression.
I think we need to return that control to the public schools, get them more funding, pay the teachers better and bring them up to date in supplies. Then people would be more inclined to leave their kids in public schools and do less home teaching. We can regain control over our schools if we start swatting the lawyers down and getting the children’s rights groups to start being realistic.
Another thing which was tossed around for a bit was the suggestion by a corporation to privatize the public school system. Down here, for several years we tried privatizing many sections of the local government, like the city repair shops, meter reading and so forth. All that happened was that they pissed off a lot of long time city employees who had to take pay cuts, be moved to new jobs or hire on with the incoming company or leave. Later, they had to fire the subcontractors for raising prices and not doing the job very well.
Our public school system might become as poorly managed as HMO’s if we let it turn into private hands.
Were public schools always as prevalent in the U.S. as they are now? I.e., is the number of public school students per capita roughly the same as it was in, say, 1845?
I attended a private school through High School. I barely graduated. I now attend a public 2-year college. The point is, it’s not necessarily the school that one goes to, it’s the effort one puts in.
At the private school, the teachers were paid LESS than the teachers at the public school. They also didn’t have a union, meaning the school could fire them for almost any reason (in a public school, the only way to get a teacher fired is if he/she sleeps with or kills one of their students… and the latter is a maybe).
Anyway, I ask… why was the private school better than the public school? It was crowded (class size was, on average, 25 students… I had one class with 12 students in it). The teachers were a lot friendlier (they didn’t have to worry about students stabbing them). The students were a lot more open with one another.
I could go on, of course, but I won’t. I want to agree with Tradesilicon… even if every private school were suddenly filled to capacity (which I’m sure the vast majority of them already are), it wouldn’t detract more than a percent or two from the public school population, because A: there’s a lot more public than private schools, and B: a private school takes far fewer students.
So I wouldn’t be too concerned about anyone “buying their superiority”… superior people will excel no matter what school they’re in. We inferior people, on the other hand, will remain unemployed and living with their parents.
A republic is a type of state. A democracy is a form of government. The US is a republic whose form of government is representative democracy.
Wow Sentinel, I didn’t expect that from you.
For some reason I trust some things better in the hands of the public. I don’t want some money grubbing CEO figuring out how much more he can milk me for and still call it an education. At least the government has some sort of vested interest in creating educated citizens. Do we want our education to be tailored whatever gets a good bottom line. Look at television, a great example of capitalism’s best efforts. What we ened up with is twenty-four hours a day of drivel emant to hold us on until we watch enough commercials to make the executives rich. Call me a pinko, but that is a terrible way to handle education.
More people in private schools (especially rich people whos well educated parents only work one job and have the luxery of attending PTA meetings, helping with homework and generally improving learning conditions) means less support for public schools. Community leaders would presumably abandon public schools as ghettos of poverty and povery related crime. No one would cry out because the people stuck in there would be poor and and not white. Let’s face it – the school shootings that make the news happen in “nice white” suburbs. The ghettos are left to stew in their own juices with no outcry, unless of course, it affects the affluent.
So basically it will be impossible for the poor to get a decent education. Education is the greatest tool for breaking the cycle of poverty and crime. Without education, the ghettos would get even scarier. Do we really want an uneducated underclass with NO CHANCE to change things for themselves or their children? I know I don’t.
Besides, people might even start robbing the television execs house!
Who says private schools are better? They seem to be perceived as better for different reasons.
Sometimes scholarship doesn’t seem to be a part of the choosing process. For example, when the Supreme Court ruled on Brown vs. Board of Education and the government actually demonstrated that public schools would be integrated in the South, the word “private school” became synonymous with “white.”
Lissa told us of her problems when her parents sent her to a “Christian” school (I put the word in quotes because I suspect that word may have stood for more than one agenda).
DrBadass, your positive reaction to military school has several things going for it. Yes, it has given you disipline. It is also giving you a positive career outlook in a profession you have chosen. This is rare for most students.
Public and private schools have existed side by side for a long time. Both systems have their supporters and detractors.
If you have a problem with a school system in your area why not get involved with it? Show up at the PTA. Talk to the teachers. Write your representatives. And by God, if you feel strongly enough about it…run for the school board.
jist my opinion.
I don’t know if private schools are better or not, though the general consensus among people I know seems to be that they are. Now, I have heard that, aside from some regimentation like stricter rules of behavior and uniforms, that the classes are smaller, the teachers better, the facilities better and the general behavior is better. They are supposed to be safer, more secure and the ‘trouble making riffraff’ is not accepted.
They seem to be able to enforce rules of discipline that the public schools can no longer do. Like, a student is not allowed to show up with his pants all baggy, down around his knees, wearing a baggy shirt sporting the name of a radical rap group, toting a ghetto blaster and wearing huge sneakers with the laces untied. Racial slurs are not tolerated nor is antisocial behavior.
The perception of the general public seems to be that private schools will remove their children from the reach of the ‘thugs’ and little psychotics that apparently fill the public ones. To me, this is kind of like seeing a problem and avoiding it. I’ve not read nor heard of any parent filing a lawsuit against a private school because their son refused to get a drug test before being accepted on the basketball team because he felt his ‘individual rights’ were being violated – even though others had to do the same thing. Nor have I heard of a private school being sued because the administration opened up a student’s locker to check for contraband. (I NEVER have figured out how such suites managed to get through because a student locker is OWNED by the school, on school grounds, maintained by the school and, since it is a public school, administrated by the State.)
Now, I have heard various horror stories about private schools, but most of those are ages old, of dubious fact, and almost impossible to trace.
Not that this is indicative of any general trend or tendency, merely anecdotal, but within the last couple of years in an affluent Cleveland suburb, there was an ongoing problem with signs being stolen from local businesses. In most cases, these were expensive, handcrafted wood signs, in keeping with the general look of the community. Some were replaced by the owners, and stolen again.
The culprits turned out to be three kids from a rather tony private school in the area. Not only that, they had all the signs in a “clubouse” in one kid’s backyard, and furthermore their parents knew about it and never bothered to call the police or tell them to put them back.
Sentinel: My understanding of the voucher program, at least in Cleveland, is that it is available to any parent who wants to take advantage, not merely minorities or low-income parents. I could be wrong, though.
Our Great Nation will always shoot for making the lowest common denominator a standard. I personally believe that a mass surge for privet schooling will Not improve the nations level of education. It will only Lower the standard of education offered by our privet schools.
pldennison, I don’t think that’s what matt_mcl is saying (or maybe it is, I don’t know.)
But here’s my point of view.
When the USA was founded, the concepts of aristocracy and titles was frowned upon because the founders had the idea that people should not have an advantage at birth, but rather should gain advantage based on their own merits.
If you have children who can afford to go to a better school because their parents are rich and/or willing to make the sacrifice, whereas students that would benefit more from a better education are deprived because of lack of money, isn’t that a similar situation? I think the role of government is to ensure (as much as possible) that everyone gets an equal chance in life. It is not easy to make the playing field perfectly level, but I think it’s a laudable goal that everyone should have a fair opportunity.
As far as the art historian earning less than the business major, that raises the issue of whether the “free market” is the best way to determine wages, which I imagine would be better handled in another discussion.
even sven said:
"For some reason I trust some things better in the hands of the public. I don’t want some money grubbing CEO figuring out how much more he can milk me for and still call it an education. At least the government has some sort of vested interest in creating educated citizens. "
sven, how can I say this without insulting anyone? NO WAY! I will take an honest COE of any private company over Government Beaurocracy anytime. I don’t trust “the govenrment” with much. Police, Fire, Armed Forced, FDA - OK. Anything outside this realm, privatize it! Education included. Set the criteria for everyone and let the best providers prevail. If public schools today can’t even keep peace in the schools, they don’t deserve to be around. There are many arenaa where Government provides a guidelines, and allows private companies to carry out the work - whhhy not schools? Those who can do the job with required results (ie High School graduates who do know how to read), within the budget get the work.
I think there is also an increase in home schooling for the same reasons. Parents who care about the future of their children, rich or poor, find a way to give them the best chance possible. The agruement that Private Schools are unfair because not all people can afford ttthen is ridiculous on the face of it. The fact is, there are many things in life many of us can not afford. The rich have far bigger advantages than private schools. They can provide their children with trust accounts, houses, businesses, etc., which would be more meaningful than a Harvard education for purposes of that arguement. Are we to say that this should be dis-allowed? C’mom, that’s utter non-sence.
Private businesses can do a better job than government in most things, education included, and there is no reason to fear private schools - they can only make those fat and happy government beaurocrats start worrying a bit more about their jobs. As some one stated earlier in this thread, you can’t fire a public school teacher, if parents yell loud enough maybe the teacher gets transferred to another school. What happens to those kids? More crap. Private enterprise is a bit different, you need a good track record and references to get a job; screw up and it will stay with you (yeah, OK, there are ways around it).
Maybe it would be different if the government really served the people or got kicked out, but they don’t. Many (most?) people in government jobs don’t care about serving anyone, they want their check and benefits, and leave them alone.
What the, I’m rambling again…Sorry.
Sili
Arnold:
But that child and his parents are not outside of society, they are part of society. If it’s in society’s interest to have an educated public, and the private school does a better job of educating this child than the public schools did, then society benefits, because instead of having X badly-educated children, you have X-1 badly-educated children, and 1 well-educated child.
Chaim Mattis Keller
cmkeller:
Your argument assumes that having children in private school has no effect on the children in public school. I argue that when there are children in private schools, that actually hurts the quality of public schools, because those parents that would otherwise be helping to increase the quality of public schools (going to PTA meetings, volunteering time at the school, financial donations, etc…) are instead spending their time and energy to support an institution that benefits a smaller segment of the population. So if your are favouring X students, and working to the detriment of Y students, and X < Y, then as a result society in general is not benefitting, in fact suffers.
Oh, and of course corporate presidents care only about serving the public good in any way they can. If it’s a choice between corporate bureaucracy and government bureaucracy, I’ll take the one that at least pretends to serve the public.
Education is a commodity like anything else, and it should be up to each individual to decide for him- or herself (or his/her children) how much they want, who they want to buy it from and how much they’re willing to pay for it. If someone decides that the public schools aren’t up to the task, they should be perfectly free to spend their money elsewhere. Forcing them to remain in a system in which they see no value is to assume that you know better than they do what they or their children need.
Anybody want to tackle the issue of whether education should be compulsory?
my experience with private corporations has not been good in that, while there is room in the general market for X product and money for all, if corporation Z is similar to Y, then Z will start fighting to control a bigger and bigger share of the market. The result always leads to underhanded dealings, loss of jobs and loss of empathy towards employees and the public.
If private schools flourish and become very profitable, sooner or later, some corporation will start buying them up and establishing new ones of its own. Then the education the students receive will be dictated by a board of corporate directors along with the price. When I was in school, historical information was, shall we say, censored and slanted. Not until much later, with the advent of the Discovery and educational television channels, did we learn that several of our idolized past leaders had feet of clay and some were downright opportunists, mainly in it for a buck.
This freedom of knowledge is now standard, but what if a corporate private school decides that you should not know that Mr. JC Penny was a fanatical tightwad and felt his store managers should be the same? How about the great railroad barons, established as heroes of the nation, exposed as selfish, conniving, wealthy men who considered money and power above the lives of their crews and passengers?
Even now with the government ignoring the monopoly laws and allowing great corporations to buy up as many communication stations of radio and television as they choose, the news and opinions often is censored. (The limit, to allow freedom of expression and information, was 10 newspapers, 10 radio stations and 10 television stations. THAT regulation has been relaxed tremendously, especially in the area of radio and newspapers.)
Make private schools a money making business and it will not be long before the corporate snakes move in to take full advantage of the money flow. I’ve observed similar things happen before, and suddenly stores absorbed started increasing prices, lowering the quality of goods and treating employees and customers worse because other sources of the goods had been run out of business.
How would you like your children’s educational costs for basic schooling to triple and their selection of subjects narrow down?
This is all speculation, but it could happen. (Small town grocery stores run out of business by bigger, cheaper corporate stores, who are in turn run out by even bigger, even cheaper mega-corporate stores, who when they monopolize the market, promptly up the prices of goods beyond the old Mom and Pop store.)
In the mean time, the public school system will dwindle to a poorly staffed and supplied hell for those ‘inferior’ children of ‘inferior’ families who cannot afford the cost.
I suggest we clean up the public schools and get them back to the way they used to be before everyone went absolutly nuts over ‘Children’s Rights’.
In many ways, we are now paying the price for the ‘Children’s Rights’ movement taking so much away from the birth parrents and educators and if we let the school system crumble, the price is going to get even higher.