Should Pete Rose be put in the MLB Hall of Fame?

The Game Room
81

Having a big stack of money on the table changes every person’s nature. Pete Rose is no exception.

It would be interesting to be able to do a statistical analysis if one knew which games had been bet on to see the win rate of the game preceding those games; I would predict that the game before or after a game that he bet on would have a lower than expected win percentage as he would be throwing everything he could into the games that he did have a bet on. The game before a game that was bet on he would be holding back his best players, and the game after his best players would be spent.

82

I guess that’s bad, but wouldn’t that sorta balance out?

83

As I remember, this was the case in at least once … he bet against the Reds when he was managing the Reds … that doesn’t mean he threw the game … but duh …

Doped up players hitting 73 home runs in a season sells TV advertising time, players exchanging cash after a game doesn’t.

No … if you re-instate Pete Rose, then you’ll have to re-instate Shoeless Joe Jackson, then you’re slip-sliding down that slope.

84

Yes

85

So what?

Again - geez, I just do not understand why people seem unable to grasp this simple point - banning Rose from baseball is not because he is a bad man. Who cares? Joe DiMaggio was a total asshole but nobody proposed banning him from baseball; Alfredo Griffin is a wonderful man and even Alfredo Griffin wouldn’t vote him into the Hall of Fame. It is because you HAVE TO ban people who gamble on baseball. It is part of a business’s survival strategy to dismiss employees who threaten the business’s survival. Gambling is an enormous risk to a sport’s integrity and survival, and so baseball has a rule that says if you gamble on your own team you’re out for life. It is a perfectly logical rule, one that is consistent with similar rules in 1,000 other professions; let’s see how long you last as a therapist if you gossip about your patients.

What’s worse; minor theft, or cheating on your spouse? The first puts you in jail. The second might get you divorced, or it might not. Maybe you think jail’s worse than divorce and maybe you think divorce is worse than jail, but we don’t put people in jail for cheating and we don’t make people get divorced because one partner shoplifted because different transgressions merit different actions.

Rose’s banishment is not about “he is bad enough to be banished” He is banished because that is what baseball needs to do, to protect itself, from players and managers who gamble on their own games. Barry Bonds, who is a monumental jackass, does not need to be banished because there is no reason to do that.

Have you ever BEEN to the Hall of Fame? Ever?

I would guess Pete Rose is mentioned, pictured, or has an artifact connected to him maybe 100 places there. One area has the all-time leaders in various statistical categories on a digital display board and right at the top of the Hits leaderboard is PETE ROSE, 4256. The list of National League MVPs does not skip 1973; it says “Pete Rose, Cincinnati Reds.” There is all kinds of Rose stuff there, as there should be.

I was a Rose fan as a kid, too; he was held up as the example kids should follow in hustling and trying your hardest, and that was a good example because he DID hustle. But when he bet on baseball, the rule is you’re out. It’s a good rule, a logical rule, and Pete Rose is a grown man who must accept the consequences for his actions.

As to whether there should be a measure of forgiveness from the Hall, if Rose wanted that, then frankly he has done a brutal, brutal job of it. He has lied, over and over and over, about what he did and did not do. He has slandered any number of people in doing so. He has lied to his friends (Mike Schmidt, most notably) to use them for his purposes. I believe he was instrumental in leaking the story in 2003 that he’d been reinstated, in a weird effort to embarrass MLB into actually doing it. He has lost any degree of trust he ever merited. If he’d come in in 1989 and admitted what he’d done it might be a different story, but he has bullshitted about this now for as long as he actually played major league ball.

86

Two legitimate positions, but I’m confused how the same person can hold both views within the same hour.

87

Check the username. I’m not confused by that at all.

88

To repeat something I’ve mentioned in other threads, John Dowd himself has said publicly many times (I’m paraphrasing, but this is an accurate account of what he’s said), “I really wish I could have sat down and had a beer with Pete Rose. I’d have told him that people are forgiving, and that if he’d just come clean about what he did and say he’s sorry, eventually he’d be reinstated. If he’d done that, he’d probably be managing the Reds today. I honestly believe that.”

Dowd is probably right, but you know something? I’m GLAD Pete was too stupid and arrogant to do that.

Because it’s TRUE! If Pete had just shed a few crocodile tears, said “I have a sickness,” and pledged insincerely to seek help, I believe he WOULD have been reinstated years ago. He shot himself in the foot by being so brazenly dishonest. And I’m HAPPY he shot himself in the foot, because I don’t want him reinstated.

89

What Rose accomplished as an athlete is completely separate from his off field personal life. He was an extremely gifted hitter and no one can take that away from him.

I support his ban from baseball for gambling. He’s been punished for 25 years and the punishment continues until he dies. That shouldn’t effect his HOF eligibility. The rule that says it does is ill-advised and shortsighted imho.

HOF is or should be based entirely on athletic achievement. Based solely on that criteria, he should be in the HOF.

90

It isn’t, and never has been.

91

Fair enough. If the HOF wants to put in a display of “Assholes who hurt baseball” I’ll go along with putting Pete Rose in there, along with Canseco, McGwire and Sosa, Dixie Walker (even though he apologized about the whole Jackie Robinson thing), the Black Sox and a bunch of others.

92

How did Dixie Walker hurt baseball? He wrote a stupid letter to Branch Rickey, was told to suck it up and shut his yap, and did so. He was a racist, or was pressured by racists, or both, but his actions didn’t slow down integration by a second and everything was apparently fine by the end of 1947.

93

They are not at all contradictory positions. Rose’s banishment from involvement in professional baseball is not the same thing as the Hall of Fame refusing to induct him. They are different entities and it is perfectly within the Hall of Fame’s rights to induct Rose even if he is banned from MLB.

Indeed, when Rose accepted his banishment, at the time there was nothing stopping the BBWAA from electing him, so the Hall of Fame passed a rule prohibiting it to prevent Rose being voted for. They could, at their leisure, lift that rule. They could choose to induct Rose tomorrow without consulting with MLB, the BBWAA or anyone else if they wanted.

94

So eleven years ago he admitted that he had a gambling addiction and bet on baseball then why is he still out of baseball?

BTW: Does anyone believe Rose’s claim that Bart Giamatti and Pete made an agreement that Rose would accept the lifetime ban and in return Giamatti allowed him to petition for reinstatement after a year. The year is up and new commissioner Fay Vincent (Giamatti is dead) allows Rose to submit his petition as agreed but refuses to reinstate Rose.

95

FWIW, I thnk it’s a huge overstatement to say Rose was “one of the best players in the history of the game”. He was undoubtedly a great player and clearly worthy of the HOF on playing stats alone, but not nearly close to being “one of the best players in the history of the game”.

In general, number of hits is an overrated stat, as it’s generally achieved by a free-swinging approach, which results in a low OBP. If you also lack power - as Rose did - and have not much speed - as Rose also did - then there’s a lot less to that stat than meets the eye. (Rose had a lifetime OPS of .784 with not much in the way of speed. Compare to Ricky Henderson with .820 and tremendous speed.)

What Rose had going for him was a lot of official at bats over a very long career. (Also, he played on some very good teams in Cinncinati.)

Again, this is not to deny that PR was a HOF caliber player. Just not nearly “one of the best players in the history of the game”, and it’s big mistake to categorize him this way based on number of career hits.

96

I guess my question would be why gambling is seen as a worse offense than taking PEDs? Sure, a guy throwing a game is detrimental, but a guy growing 2 hat sizes and you have to pitch around also is detrimental. And a guy who breaks records while on PEDs makes you question every record during that whole steroid era.

Other than the fact that the players union has prevented action, why aren’t the punishments for PED use as stringent as gambling?

97

Let me cut you off there.

No.

If Pete Rose told me water is wet or the sun rose in the East, I’d make sure I’d double check. Pete Rose has lied, and lied, and lied. One constant in the entire Rose/HOF debate is that Pete Rose is a liar.

98

He pointed it out. Gambling goes to the entire integrity of the sport as a valid enterprise. People aren’t going to watch fixed sports - they’ll feel completely cheated and leave the game in droves (scandals in boxing being the primary example). That doesn’t happen with PEDs - no one thinks the entire integrity and validity of the game is in tatters due to the PED era. Heck, attendance increased.

I still followed baseball during the steroid era (and amphetamine era before that). I’d stop watching tomorrow if I knew the sport was fixed.

99

Story time:
Pete was a great guy, the most popular guy in his neighborhood. Everyone loved good old Pete. He seemed to have a great marriage and a perfect family.

But his wife Fay suspected something was wrong. She hired the Dowd detective agency to follow Pete. Detective Dowd found that Pete had been screwing around behind Fay’s back, and gave Fay the evidence. Fay was outraged, threw Pete out of the house, and filed for divorce.

Pete denied everything. He had lots of friends in the neighborhood and in the local media, and he told all of them that Dowd was a sleazy liar who’d made everything up. Naively, they believed him. Neighbors and the local newspaper started pressuring Fay to take Pete back.

Fay wasn’t willing to take him back until Pete:

  1. Admitted what he’d done
  2. Told her how sorry he was
  3. Agreed to seek counseling to save their marriage.

But Pete refused flatly. He insisted he’d never done anything wrong, and spread the word far and wide that Fay was a vindictive bitch who’d separated him from his home and his kids for no reason.

Ten years later, long after the divorce was finalized, Pete came to Fay’s home, banged on the door in the middle of the night, and said, “Okay, I slept with lots of other women. I know I’m supposed to be sorry, but I’m not. Now, take me back!”

Think that would work?

100

Dixie Walker also tried to lead a player’s strike against Robinson – a movement which quickly evaporated when Commissioner Frick threatened to throw any strikers out of baseball. And things weren’t “fine” by the end of 1947, which is why the Dodgers traded Walker and his +.300 batting average to Pittsburgh.

But the “Assholes who hurt baseball” display will be a big one. I’m sure we can find room for everyone’s nominees.