Should POLAND Give Back East Prussia To Germany?

Do you mean Ruthenia? Because they’re kind of rising right now and it isn’t going so well.

Should ex-USSR (Byelorussia and Ukraine) have to give back the third of Poland it swallowed in their 1939 invasion? And what of their 45 year occupation and the millions of Poles they murdered including those who died in this incident? Katyn massacre - Wikipedia ?

A better and more justifiable question is whether Russia should have to return their part of East Prussia.

The term “Greater Germany” is inaccurate in this context, but not so much for ist use by the Nazis. The term was originally coined in the 19th century as one of two possible answers to the “German Question”. The key difference to its alternative “Lesser Germany” was the inclusion of Austria. The region of East Prussia was included in both versions.

As far as the OP is concerned the answer is no. The Germans do not want it back, the Poles do not want to give it back. Everyone has accepted the historical facts and moved on.

If you’re going to discuss historical grievances, you need to ask if East Prussia should have been German in the first place. The only reason it was under German control is because Germans conquered it back in the 13th century. You can make an argument that the postwar settlements weren’t giving German lands to the Poles but were just restoring Polish lands to the Poles.

Since the Germanics were in what we call Poland before the Slavs. the Germans were just taking back what was theirs in the first place. The argument is weak because most places on the planet have been conquered or swallowed up by migration many times.

We should cede Europe back to the Neanderthals.

They deserve it after the genocide we perpetrated against them. We apologize for our evil actions Neanderthals. :frowning:

Correct and Amen.

Germany’s war guilt was so obvious and so colossal that it is reasonable to consider it got off lightly.

The preposterous logic in effect above is that if a victim cannot by compensated by all of the criminals who violated it then it should be compensated by none of them.

When it was originally coined is nice and all, but denying that it was a cornerstone of Nazism flies in the face of reality: Map of the administrative division of the Greater German Reich (»Großdeutsches Reich«/»Großdeutschland«/“Greater German Empire”/“Greater Germany”) by the NSDAP 1944 (in English).

Nazi Germany, geography:

Just taking back what was theirs in the first place? I assume you are familiar with Generalplan Ost and that the Nazis were intending to exterminate the Slavs as a race to as far as the Ural mountains? You might want to look into Expulsion of Poles by Germany as well:

I didnt say that, did I?

I understand that. I was just responding to the idea that Poland was slavic before it was German. Central Europe has seen many waves of migration so no one really gets to claim that land as their own.

This is inaccurate.

The Poles have occupied Poland since before the ~900AD beginning on the recorded history of the country.

I believe it is thought that during Roman era the Germanic Goths inhabited much of what is now modern Poland and then moved completely out by 500AD, thus terminating by abandonment the original Germanic title to the land.

The Balts (Prussians, Letts and others) and Finnish peoples may have preceded the Slavs in former Goth and future Polish territory.

The Slavs came into being in central Europe IIRC approx. the time the Goths were migrating, and spread in all directions eventually reaching the Elbe river in the west, bordering Charlemagne’s empire. Then the Slavs were in the process of centuries of border warfare with the Germans eventually driven several 100 miles east. They were able to hold their ground in what is now Poland, territory which the Germans had absolutely no legitimate claim to.

That was the obvious implication.

If that’s your argument, it has a big flaw. The Germans weren’t there before the Slavs. The Slavs were there at least four hundred years before the Germans showed up.

Granted, the region was once occupied by the Celts. So maybe we should just skip over the Russians and the Germans and the Poles and give the Kaliningrad Oblast to Ireland.

The point madsircool was making is that nations are usually not justified in laying claim to an area based on the fact that their forefathers have lived there at some point in history. Most territories - especially in Europe - have been inhabited by different peoples throughout history and it would be impossible to determine who is the original “legitimate” owner. The region that is today Poland is no exception. We do not know exactly when the Poles’ Slavic ancestors first came to the region, whether it was uninhabited at the time and whether the migration was peaceful. If you are making the case that the Poles are rightfully entitled to their land due to some ancient history, that is not a problem today, because they are living there now and everyone is fine with that. But you could, by applying the same rationale, create claims for many nations to lands that they do not occupy today. And that is a problem.

I was objecting to his contention that what is now Poland was ever relevantly inhabited by Germans.

As I clearly said, Poles have been in unbroken possession of most of what is now Poland for the entire recorded history of the region. IOW about 1200 years.

Now, OP concerned East Prussia which has a different history, and was not a Polish possession until 1945. Briefly: as of ~1200 East Prussia had for centuries been inhabited by pagan tribes, the Prussians, who were neither Germanic nor Slav, but Balt. The Prussians were conquered by German crusaders and in the course of centuries were completely Germanized. We have covered why the land of the now lost ancient Prussians became Polish and why it should remain Polish.

That is not what I said and I do not believe you are doing me the favor of reading my posts carefully enough to understand them.

Kindly address this to Mr. madsircool.

These days people move around Europe quite a lot. For holidays, to live or to work. Many retired people buy property in pursuit of an simpler lifestyle and a better climate. Usually people head south for that sort of thing. There are plenty of German speaking areas in Poland, if people feel a real attachment to an area, they can move there.

The European Union has long since removed many of the territorial conflicts between European states that are members. In fact, it is a requirement for membership that such claims should be settled.

There has been an organisation devoted to Polish-German reconciliation for many years now.

http://www.fpnp.pl/fundacja/ofpnp_en.php

Europe is riddled with territorial disputes and always has been. Harking back to which ancient tribe lived where to justify rival claims by nation states is not an argument that bears much examination. Europe has largely moved on from dictators peddling national myths…though that attitude still persists of you look East, which is a constant worry.

Thanks – I think you’re restating a point that I made about 11 years ago in post #6.

There is one big obstacle to this free movement of people throughout Europe, however: Russia is outside the EU and looks unlikely to join it for the foreseeable future.

Modern day Germans. Ancient Germans settled in Magna Germania until displaced by Slavic migration.

The Welsh might be more fitting peoples to occupy the land. There is a Galicia in Poland and Spain and Wales in spanish is Gales. The Welsh are the only peoples tough enough to bring peace to the region. :wink: