I have spent countless hours this past week trying to remove layer after layer of adware/spyware/crapware from a few PCs as a favor to friends, and some of this stuff is unbelievably tenacious in trying to keep itself from being removed, even afer scouring with spybot and adaware etc. Some of these nasty little POS are almost virus like in the way that they seemingly offer you the option to install, but when you kill the applet or decline, it throws you in some confusing full screen mode where you have to press the button it wants you to press to get back, and this of course loads the shitware it wants to deliver. If I didn’t know to kill these things with ALT-CTRL-DEL task manager I be up the creek.
Anyway, my question is, should programming this type of manipulative fakeout install behavior into software be considered illegal in any way? It’s certainly manipulative and deceitful and makes me want to chainsaw off the fingers of the coders and programmers that do this crap, but should it be illegal?
I dont think it should be illegal to make said software. I think it should be illegal for them to leave trash behind it after uninstall and/or dodge anti junk scanners such as Spybot and Adaware. Some of them even kill Spybot and Adaware on site. That is intrusive behaviour that should be made illegal, yesterday.
I wish it were illegal. They’re altering my property without my consent, and they do it in a way obviously designed to make it difficult to remove. I hate the people that do this with a passion.
Considering 95% of this garbage comes from installing silly things like Kazaa I’ve always considered it poetic justice
Why should it be illegal? All it is doing is something your OS and software are built to do. The software can only do what your system lets it. Sure someone can’t come in to your house uninvited, but what we are seeing here is people actually inviting everybody and their buddy in without really checking up on them.
The moral of the story is, it shouldn’t be the Government’s responsibilty to make unexploitable OSes, browsers, and email clients and it darn sure shouldn’t be their responsibilty to make you think twice when you click ‘Yes’.
My point is that people are not clicking “yes”. They are clicking “no” and then the install applet pulls some stunt where “no” means “yes”, or it bursts you into a semi-locked up state (unless you use alt-ctrl-del) where you have to press the button it wants you to in order to move on. It’s insidious and it’s not just on Kazaa. Lots of web pages have this nonsense.
It’s actually more like you invited a certain someone over to your house, and they promptly invited a few people themselves. (people that you don’t like and want gone) You should have the right to refuse them entry, and not have them breaking into your house.
While surfing the Web the other day, my wife got one of these things on her computer. She didn’t have a chance–a dialog popped up, asking “Install Crapware 2.1?” (It wasn’t called “Crapware 2.1,” but let’s use that name for now.) There was no way to close the dialog except by clicking one of two buttons: a Yes button and an OK button. Without a No button and with no other way to close the box, she tried the OK button.
And without wanting to, installed Crapware 2.1.
We managed to get rid of it all, though it took some doing. The handy uninstall function that was a part of the installation left traces of it in various places. Windows’ “Add/Remove Programs” function got rid of a few more. For the final bits, a Google search on Crapware led us to a site (can’t remember it now) that told of experiences of others with this insidious software, and what they did to get rid of all of it, which was a big help. This thing was sneaky, I must say.
Should this be illegal? I dunno. It’s certainly what I’d call unethical–it would seem to me that if you want to sell your software, you’d likely get more buyers if you didn’t anger them by forcing an installation of your software then making it damn near impossible to remove. Still, I’d have no problem (well, not much of one anyway) if the dialog offered a Yes and a No button, and the No button actually did refuse the installation. And if by chance the user did press Yes, and then changed his or her mind, the uninstall function should uninstall all of it, not leave bits behind.
I don’t use Kazaa, I don’t download silly toolbars or messengers, I don’t try to hit the monkey, I don’t do any of it and still I get this stuff.
Some of these programs don’t ask you “Yes” or “No,” even with privacy settings cranked all the way up. Some of them never even tell you that they’re putting themselves on your computer. These are the ones I object to. I don’t want the government to make an unexploitable OS, I want them to make programs that maliciously exploit my OS without my consent illegal.
I’d be for the restriction of this type of software if I wasn’t making so much $ from the removal of it… it’s amazing what an hour of downloading/scanning can cost my customers though.
When these get really bad, they can bring the PC to a crawl, isn’t this in effect a Denial of Service???
Okay mr high and mighty. Download Spybot Search and Destroy (3.5 MB), install it (very quick and truly harmless), and visit: CNN in IE or Netscape. What does Spybot say they kept from installing on your computer? A piece of spyware called Avenue A, Inc!!!
You would think that a reputable website like
CNN wouldn’t distribute spyware, but they do. They themselve don’t necessarily but they support advertisers who do. So it’s not just the scumbags that get spied on.
**Hackers that exploit weaknesses in security aren’t telling the hardware and OS to do anything they weren’t built to do either. But their activity is quite illegal. You want to make that argument, then you have to make hacking legal too.
Next time that happens hit CTRL+W(preferred) or ALT+F4(last resort). CTRL+W will close that window. ALT+F4 will close your browser. If that doesn’t work use the task manager to end task. Of course that WILL most definately close your browser. So you’ll lose back button history, other windows open, etc. Of course if you used Opera then you wouldn’t have to worry about that. Opera saves windows and back button history when you close the program. Plus it has certain capabilities that other browsers don’t have specifically designed to thwart spyware and malicious websites.
Well then… this is exactly what I’m saying. If your OS/browser allows programs to be installed without a Yes/No then maybe you should look into THAT. Because THAT is the problem. These people are using workable legal options to install programs without your consent. If you aren’t happy with that maybe you should change your computer configuration to something that gives you a bit more power.
You folks wish to make this illegal, I’d prefer to make it impossible. I’m not even going to get into silly garbage about use this or block that… if the program is broke fix it. Because THAT is the solution. Making it illegal will just move them overseas… will that help?
So to sum up my unpopular points into something perhaps a bit more palatable:
a) If programs can be installed on your software without your knowledge and approval clearly there is a flaw in the software which should be addressed in a timely manner. Placing the blame elsewhere is pointless, this type of thing just shouldn’t be possible.
b) Making it illegal is a flawed solution that won’t stop it from occuring in the slighest. If anything it would give folks a sense of safety before they realized that US law means about as much as my post if you cross a few imaginary lines.
prisoner6655321… I’m going to ignore you high and mighty comment because you have a point. Almost. While cracking/exploiting seems the same at first there is a huge difference. When cracking you are effecting another computer… you are trespassing. Not so in this case. In this case I CHOOSE to view cnn.com in the way that my browser is designed to. The choice is the key, I go to the site the site doesn’t come to me. I don’t like it either, but I still say making it illegal is the wrong option… fixing the browsers is the right one.
I’d rather do it your way as well LostOne, but I don’t think it’s that easy to do. There are plenty of companies out there that make software that stops things like this, but then the people who make the malicious programs just find a way around it. When the antivirus/web browser people patch those holes up, people find new holes. You’re constantly playing catch-up, and during those times when browser protection lags behind, you pick up more of this nasty software.
And as far as it being my choice to pick up these programs, I don’t see how that’s the case. If I visit CNN.com, I’m going there to read CNN.com. At no point have I agreed to let them or their advertisers alter my computer. Just because I drive my car to Wal-Mart doesn’t mean they’re allowed to spraypaint 'Discount City" all over my hood while I’m inside.
Don’t be silly. If I choose one person for a friend and reject or ignore others I’m not being antisocial. I’m just being selective.
I’m afraid LostOne is right. Making it illegal won’t stop it. I’ve already had one offshore “company” charge long-distance connections to Nuaru. I got the phone company to remove them, but it was a hassle. I kinda like the chain saw idea.