Should suicide be a human right?

[GreedySmurf]

@kayaker

Sadly, when Jack Kevorkian died nobody really took his place as an advocate for this simple right.

He probably doesn’t have a high profile in the States, an Australian Dr Philip Nitschke is a right to die advocate. He actually got legislation passed in the Northern Territory legalising Euthanasia, and assisted four people to end their lives before the Feds stepped in and overturned the law.

I can think of any number of scenarios, where I wouldn’t want to continue existing. I for one am fully supportive of peoples right to end their life. There definitely needs to be certain safeguards in any sort of ‘euthanasia clinic’, including but not limited to waiting periods, and mandatory counselling.

An interesting aside, I presume we would see an immediate change in the policy documents for life insurance coverage.

[YogSothoth]

I support suicide with little restrictions.

Because I am atheist, I don’t believe life is intrinsically positive and death is intrinsically negative. Therefore, if someone dies, but for the wrong reasons, its irrelevant, because they are not around to care. Therefore I would support healthy adults, psychologically imbalanced people, or otherwise mentally ill people to choose to die. They will never regret it because you cannot regret anything while dead, so dying, even if one were crazy, is not a bad thing

[Chief_Pedant]

@jackdavinci

In principle, I think people who are of sound mind but have a severe legitimate incurable illness that causes intense physical suffering should be able to pass on. And I think in principle, people should be able to sell their non essential organs (are there any besides kidneys?). But in both cases, we need stricter laws in order to avoid situations where people are being pressured into it.

I would cut out the suffering part and just say, “I think people who are of sound mind should be allowed to kill themselves.”

This is, however, a completely unworkable statement.

Who decides what a sound mind is? For some folks, wanting to kill yourself is prima facie evidence of an unsound mind. And anyone in the psychotherapy business will tell you that the main problem with suicide is its irreversibility. The average person whose suicide attempt fails changes their mind at a later date.

In any case, there is no practical way to keep anyone of sound mind from committing suicide if they are able bodied. If they are not, then we are talking about assisted suicide which is a whole other topic and should be tightly regulated.

[Lust4Life]

If we keep on overpopulating the planet at the rate we are, then I suspect that it will.

Not on the grounds that it will help, but because as the numbers become too large to really understand, the value of human life will inevitably fall in the consciousness of the many.

Personally I’m against the right to suicide, as what can start off as a right becomes obligatory in some circumstances .

You’re too old, you’ve had your life, you’re using up resources that the young need, now move over !

[monstro]

@Lust4Life

Personally I’m against the right to suicide, as what can start off as a right becomes obligatory in some circumstances .

You’re too old, you’ve had your life, you’re using up resources that the young need, now move over !

Right now in the US, women have the right to have an abortion. However, they don’t have a right to kill their babies once they have been birthed (and in most jurisdictions, can’t abort their babies after a certain period of time either). We’ve had abortion for a long time and somehow we haven’t slid down the “inevitable” slippery slope.

[Lust4Life]

I’m pro choice myself and always have been.

Abortion isn’t actually killing, because a piece of biological, non sentient, clockwork is an it, not a person.

Just like sperm and eggs.

[monstro]

@Lust4Life

I’m pro choice myself and always have been.

Abortion isn’t actually killing, because a piece of biological, non sentient, clockwork is an it, not a person.

Just like sperm and eggs.

My point is that you are committing the slippery slope fallacy. Just because we allow abortion doesn’t mean we allow babies to be slaughtered. Just because we give women the right to abortion doesn’t mean that women are made to feel obligated to use it.

If we allowed suicide, it would not logically follow that anyone would be obligated to commit it. People might use it as an option when they wouldn’t have otherwise, but that’s not the same thing as feeling obligated to.

[Lust4Life]

In the U.K. its already happening with old people.

When my old mum (passed on now) had an aneurism, her doctor rang me up and asked me how far I wanted him to go to save her if she had another one, as she had very vigourusly expressed her desire to live as long as was humanly possible, I told him to treat her life as you would your own.
I was shocked that he even had the cheek to ask me.

Theres been scandals lately about a N.H.S. project called Gateway whos purpose is to supposedly assist the terminally ill to pass on easily.

The normal process is to deny them liquids and pump them full of drugs.

Except that they discovered that some weren’t actually terminally ill, (And are still alive and WELL today only because their families tended to them in hospital against the hospitals wishes .)
And it was also found that some of the patients didn’t want an assisted passage.

There are also reports of people who get ill over a certain age have been denied treatments.

What particulary infuriates me is smug youngsters trying to lay a guilt trip on OAP s, with the mantra that people are living longer now and are draining resources.

As though people who have worked and paid into the system all of their lives should feel bad about earning their just reward rather then freeing up THEIR money for feckless people having more offspring then they can afford.

No doubt when these idiots reach 70 they’ll do the decent thing and dispose of themselves , not !

But luckily for them its a long, long way away, and no doubt they’ll change their tune as they get older, or laugh off their criticism of todays old people as the rashness of youth , ha, ha, ha .

Unless this trend is nipped in the bud, vulnerable old people will increasingly be pressured into early termination , some of them, no doubt by greedy family members eager to get their hands on the loot.

For the overwhelming majority of people if they really, really wish to kill themselves they can do unassisted, the human body is a very frail thing.

But yes I do realise that there are some who wish to die but because of their debilitating illness are physically unable to.

But if we introduce a culture ofso called “Choice” I think that more people will suffer then benefit.

You do realise that you’re blocking that hospital bed for someone younger whos got their whole life ahead of them don’t you ?
No, no I’m not saying that you’re selfish , or hinting at what you should do, just saying is all.

[lekatt]

@lankyBlonde

Let me begin by first saying that I am in no way depressed or suicidal, I actually really enjoy life. But I was recently thinking about human rights (and the lack thereof in many parts of the world) and I feel like a certain, fundamental right has been wholly ignored or otherwise incorrectly enforced in many parts of the world. The right to die.

The most common argument that people pose when they’re discussing this topic is that of free will. They claim that the suicidal individual is so impulsively driven by these suicidal urges that rationality and logic don’t come into their equation of thought which makes us morally responsible to help them and to get them to see the “light.” A lot of these people also falsely assume that life, or even mere existence in some cases, is always intrinsically positive and intrinsically better than death regardless of the circumstances. This comes off as being silly when you realize that death is a state that no human being has any speck of knowledge about. Nothing. Nada. Zero. We have absolutely no idea where we go, what we experience, who we become, and so forth. ANYTHING could happen after death and if someone wishes to find out what that is, who has a right to tell them they shouldn’t?

Secondly, I can brain storm situations where I would much rather be dead than exist. If someone winds up in such a situation and wishes to leave, who has the right to force them to stay? It’s like forcing someone to stay at a party that they’re not enjoying.

Thirdly, we are forced into life just as a slave is forced to work. We had no say in the matter and even if life is a “gift”, I think we can all intrinsically agree that it is up to the owner, and solely the owner, to decide what to do with his own gift, even if it means disposing of it.

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die? Maybe in a dimly lit room with a cute nurse who’s holding a big needle? Maybe some soft music playing in the background? Or is this inhumane? But then if it’s inhumane, isn’t it also inhumane to force a suffering individual to exist just because YOU assume that things will get better for him?

Discuss.

Not much of anything I can agree with here. Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right. I spend a lot of time talking people out of committing suicide. I am almost always successful and they are very grateful to me for doing so once they realize what has happened to them. They are younger people usually in good health. I am one of those old people (75) who enjoys life and will continue to do so until I pass.

Now we do know something about the afterlife from millions of people who have died for short periods of time and came back to tell us about it. This is true and has been scientifically studied. I don’t care if you don’t believe. I have been there.

We don’t come into this world by accident we ask to come here and come because we requested it. There is always a reason for us to come here and it is for learning. This world is to be understood.

This world has seen many civilizations come and go. Some just disappear without apparent reason so the scientists make up a reason, earthquakes, famine, floods, etc. We need not worry about population the weather of plagues will handle that.

We are here to grow up and learn to help each other. To stop fighting and grabbing for money and power and other senseless things. Morals count big time here.

[Czarcasm]

@lekatt

Not much of anything I can agree with here. Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right. I spend a lot of time talking people out of committing suicide. I am almost always successful and they are very grateful to me for doing so once they realize what has happened to them.

Why are lots of suicidal people coming to you for help? Are you a professional therapist? Suicide is pretty damn rare, so why do you encounter it so often?

[Czarcasm]

@lekatt

Now we do know something about the afterlife from millions of people who have died for short periods of time and came back to tell us about it. This is true and has been scientifically studied. I don’t care if you don’t believe. I have been there.

Did you have some other experience other than the dream you described on your website-one where you went to a hospital or had a doctor declare that you were clinically dead for a short period of time?

[hotflungwok]

@Lust4Life

When my old mum (passed on now) had an aneurism, her doctor rang me up and asked me how far I wanted him to go to save her if she had another one, as she had very vigourusly expressed her desire to live as long as was humanly possible, I told him to treat her life as you would your own.
I was shocked that he even had the cheek to ask me.

I would want my own not suffer horribly before an inevitable end or live indefinitely as a vegetable. He asked because not everyone thinks that the quantity of life is more important than the quality of life. It wasn’t cheek, it was compassion.

And it was also found that some of the patients didn’t want an assisted passage.

Then who authorized it? Did these people have living wills? (Or the UK equivalent) If they’re just killing people off with consulting anyone or without clear consent, then that’s wrong. But no one here is advocating that.

There are also reports of people who get ill over a certain age have been denied treatments.

Should an available heart go to an 80 year old coronary heart disease patient?

But yes I do realise that there are some who wish to die but because of their debilitating illness are physically unable to.

But if we introduce a culture ofso called “Choice” I think that more people will suffer then benefit.

So taking choice away from people is the right answer?

[Tethered_Kite]

I’ve spent oceans of time with suicidal people. Trying to find the magic words to “fix” it used to keep me awake at night. And I’ve lost several people close to me to suicide.

Of all the people I’ve sat with and tried to help find their way about six of them have written me later thanking me for my help. If I had a single letter I would have been happy that I made a difference for someone. It’s kinda goofy but some of us are just put together that way.

I won’t go into my cumparsita here but the trials I’ve survived have been sufficiently grueling. Not worth running down the little chant of sorrows anymore.

But what I have learned is that I’m tough as nails and have still managed to keep a tender heart. And I never learned any of that from the good times. So when Hell shows up for breakfast I put on the skillet and expect payment back in the form of new skills and a deeper understanding of what it means to be given one single rapidly shortening life.

But, I’ve moved on from trying to change people’s minds about their choices. I can drop a hint or two but no more lost sleep for me. And I’ll hold hands and listen if asked.

So no. Go ahead, all you folks who feel terribly imposed upon for not being consulted whether you wanted to be born or not. Many of you could be helped simply by looking outward rather than inward. The tools for improving your lives are available to anyone willing to google them and discipline himself. Expect it to be difficult.

Severe physical pain from disease or intractable mental illness is a horse of a different color. It grieves me that some have to suffer this way and they, too should have some avenue of relief, if desired, I think.

I don’t like the idea of institutionalizing the process. Perhaps medical people could provide the materials and information and offer to be standing by for those who don’t want supervision.

But for myself, I expect I’ll keep putting one foot in front of the other. Because you don’t want to leave before the good stuff happens. And you can’t make good stuff happen when you’re not around.

[ReticulatingSplines]

@lekatt

Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right.

Uh huh. So since it’s illegal to take someone’s wallet and throw it off a cliff, it’s also illegal to take your own wallet and throw it off a cliff, right? Ironclad logic right there.

[lekatt]

@Tethered_Kite

I’ve spent oceans of time with suicidal people. Trying to find the magic words to “fix” it used to keep me awake at night. And I’ve lost several people close to me to suicide.

Of all the people I’ve sat with and tried to help find their way about six of them have written me later thanking me for my help. If I had a single letter I would have been happy that I made a difference for someone. It’s kinda goofy but some of us are just put together that way.

I won’t go into my cumparsita here but the trials I’ve survived have been sufficiently grueling. Not worth running down the little chant of sorrows anymore.

But what I have learned is that I’m tough as nails and have still managed to keep a tender heart. And I never learned any of that from the good times. So when Hell shows up for breakfast I put on the skillet and expect payment back in the form of new skills and a deeper understanding of what it means to be given one single rapidly shortening life.

But, I’ve moved on from trying to change people’s minds about their choices. I can drop a hint or two but no more lost sleep for me. And I’ll hold hands and listen if asked.

So no. Go ahead, all you folks who feel terribly imposed upon for not being consulted whether you wanted to be born or not. Many of you could be helped simply by looking outward rather than inward. The tools for improving your lives are available to anyone willing to google them and discipline himself. Expect it to be difficult.

Severe physical pain from disease or intractable mental illness is a horse of a different color. It grieves me that some have to suffer this way and they, too should have some avenue of relief, if desired, I think.

I don’t like the idea of institutionalizing the process. Perhaps medical people could provide the materials and information and offer to be standing by for those who don’t want supervision.

But for myself, I expect I’ll keep putting one foot in front of the other. Because you don’t want to leave before the good stuff happens. And you can’t make good stuff happen when you’re not around.

You are doing a good job. Listening and holding hands is great.It is true that you can’t change other people minds so it doesn’t help to try. Lead them to change their own minds. We need millions like you, because you care and that is what matters.

[lekatt]

@ReticulatingSplines

Uh huh. So since it’s illegal to take someone’s wallet and throw it off a cliff, it’s also illegal to take your own wallet and throw it off a cliff, right? Ironclad logic right there.

Yes it is a matter of ownership easy logic.

[lankyBlonde]

@lekatt

Not much of anything I can agree with here. Murder is against the law and so is self-murder. That is why it is not a right. I spend a lot of time talking people out of committing suicide. I am almost always successful and they are very grateful to me for doing so once they realize what has happened to them. They are younger people usually in good health. I am one of those old people (75) who enjoys life and will continue to do so until I pass.

Now we do know something about the afterlife from millions of people who have died for short periods of time and came back to tell us about it. This is true and has been scientifically studied. I don’t care if you don’t believe. I have been there.

We don’t come into this world by accident we ask to come here and come because we requested it. There is always a reason for us to come here and it is for learning. This world is to be understood.

This world has seen many civilizations come and go. Some just disappear without apparent reason so the scientists make up a reason, earthquakes, famine, floods, etc. We need not worry about population the weather of plagues will handle that.

We are here to grow up and learn to help each other. To stop fighting and grabbing for money and power and other senseless things. Morals count big time here.

Wow. I am shocked by your ignorance, stupidity, and logic.

(1) Self murder /=/ murder. It is illegal for me to go out and tattoo a giant penis on your face because that is YOUR face and YOUR body. If I wish to have a giant penis tattoo on MY face, that is MY right. Do you seriously not understand the distinction?

(2) Actually we don’t know anything about what happens when we die. All we have are stories and myths and tales but there is absolutely nothing even remotely concrete. This is pretty much inarguable.

(3) So you’re telling me you vividly remember making a conscious decision to be born? I don’t and neither do billions of people. Are you trolling mate?

[lekatt]

@lankyBlonde

Wow. I am shocked by your ignorance, stupidity, and logic.

(1) Self murder /=/ murder. It is illegal for me to go out and tattoo a giant penis on your face because that is YOUR face and YOUR body. If I wish to have a giant penis tattoo on MY face, that is MY right. Do you seriously not understand the distinction?

(2) Actually we don’t know anything about what happens when we die. All we have are stories and myths and tales but there is absolutely nothing even remotely concrete. This is pretty much inarguable.

(3) So you’re telling me you vividly remember making a conscious decision to be born? I don’t and neither do billions of people. Are you trolling mate?

I don’t remember being born but others do, you can find them on the web under Pre-Birth Experiences. We do know about the afterlife in the same way. I just don’t see any connection between (1) and what I wrote.

[lekatt]

@Czarcasm

Why are lots of suicidal people coming to you for help? Are you a professional therapist? Suicide is pretty damn rare, so why do you encounter it so often?

Suicide is rampant in the military and among young people. It has tripled in the last 25 years.

[Wesley_Clark]

It should be, yes. Granted it does cause tons of pain and suffering for family and friends, and their suffering will be amplified after the person dies. But they aren’t the ones who have to suffer the way the individual in question suffers. If a person has to suffer, they have a right to end the suffering. Either way, someone will be in pain and miserable.

For philosophical reasons, the connection between suicide and mental illness, and the harm suicide causes to those around the person who commits it suicide will likely never be seen as a right. But it should be.