Should the ACLU be allowed to force LA to change its seal?

Notice- Post Contains Witnessing
I believe in G-d. I feel His presence in my daily life. I try to carry out His will.

I don’t want Him mentioned on my money, on any seal of government, or memorialized in any government institution.

Yes, Spanish missions are important to the history of LA. This would be shown much more clearly by replacing the cross with a small picture of a mission.

Pomona has so few remaining followers, she’s become more a historical reference than a religious symbol.

Chaplains AFAIK, also serve many purely secular purposes. If a soldier goes to a psychologist for counseling, it’s a matter of record that they obtained counseling. A soldier can go talk to a chaplain without a paper trail. More, the chaplain can be trusted never to reveal what is said. They are valuable as they provide a safe place for a soldier to share their fears. Chaplains generally also have another official capacity (such as morale officers). They represent the armed forces seeing a need and providing for it, not an official endorsement of religion.

I was going to say what DocCathode said but since he already said it I don’t need to say what I would have said if he hadn’t. OK?

By looking at my name, most of you should be recognizing my radical liberal bias.

As a born and raised Angelino, I can’t say that the county’s symbol has had any effect on me whatsoever. Most Californians are fully aware of our cultural and historical heritage - mainly, the Spanish missionaries and the native indians they interacted with. Most of the larger/older towns/cities/anything in California are named after the Spanish missions that were the first non-native structures built here. A lot of the rest are named after the native words for an area or whatever.

As such, most of us recognize the image of an old adobe mission as a SYMBOL of California, cross or no cross. I know it is the same way in a lot of the rest of the Southwest.

The East coasters have a long history of cultural traditions and stuff. This is what we have. The only battles fought here were minor skirmishes, historical footnotes. All we have are missions, farming, and then the modern era. Most of Southern California was desert and orange groves 75 years ago (as such, most of the city logos are oranges, which makes it really confusing).

You can take the cross off the mission, but you can’t take the mission out of California. It was, is, and always will be part of our history and our culture.

As far as the “pagan goddess” Pomona goes… I don’t think Pomona is inspiring anyone to do anything other than move the hell out of it. :wink:

On a side note, research where the name “California” comes from, then start arguing about Christian domination.

Your first admendment rights are not being taken away by the seal of LA.
I saw nothing religious when I looked at the seal, someone had to point it out. Guess I am just a slow learner.

I see no one trying to force you to appeal to God.

I never said “you” trusted in God, or needed to.

I saw no one claiming you trusted in God.

Here you really lost me, how does you being American mean you trust in God just because the saying is on our coins?

Just because you take all this personal doesn’t mean it is personal. Geesh, it’s a motto, how many people pay any attention to a motto.

As for not knowing about separation of church and state, I know that the admentment was designed to prevent the kind of government England had. A government where church leaders couldn’t dictate their ideas. We haven’t had interference in government by the churches since this country started.

Now if you don’t want to ever see a cross again in anything that has to do with government, you will be disappointed.

Don’t forget if you make the eighty percent really mad, they have the power to change the laws.

I would say what we have here is straining at gnats and swallowing mountains.

I don’t care if you are an atheist, I have close friends who are atheists and agnostics and many different callings. Can’t we just learn to tolerant the small things.

Love

I await you starting a thread suggesting that we put “white people rule!” onour money, since the majority of people in this country are white.

Which is exactly why the founders wisely left that task up to the public and individual conscience, instead of trying to claim God’s imprintur on government actions or reserve religious authority for the government’s usage.

So why even create the contention in the first place? Money is money. It doesn’t need to debate with me about whether god exists or not. It just needs to be legal tender for transaction.

That I agree.

They might, but either way I can’t bring myself to see it as a big deal. The seal isn’t hurting anyone now, and it won’t be hurting anyone if it’s changed. Personally, I see it as a gigantic waste of time for both the ACLU and the people who want to keep it.

As usual, you demonstrate that you have not a clue what SoCaS is about. Chaplains are provided for the soldier’s benefit because those soldiers are often removed from places where they can get acess to the spiritual guides and services they need. So, just like food, the government provides it to them. They are not endorsements of religion, and chaplains have no authority to compell anyone to use their services or to attend military prayer sessions. Try again.

Religion is not the same as food is, I think you need to try again. What we have is government providing religion at the expense of taxpayers. The government does endose the kinds and variety of chaplains offered. If you are not main stream Christian or Jewish just try to find a priest of your faith in the military.
What you say about chaplains not compelling anyone to believe their faith, this has always been true of any preachers. Chaplains do help people find God, in their time of need.

Now don’t think I am against this, because I am not. On the battlefield, and even off it. I can remember a couple of times a chaplain helped plenty. Once when a sailor was notified his children had been killed accidentally, another in the midst of a hurricane.

One thing people need is emotional and spiritual support, it is correct for the government to provide it to soldiers.

People need spiritual support? What about the millions of atheists living in America? They seem to be doing fine.

Not entirely true. The Chaplain Corps of the U.S. Army includes Muslim and Buddhist chaplains as well.

https://www.perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/Branches/Chaplains%20Corps.htm

The ACLU seems to be on a mission to outlaw any ad all forms of Christianity and no other religion.
If only the christians would stad up ad fight them, it would be a good thing.

Oh my gosh! One person is offended! Lets change everything!
How dare we have a person offended by a cross! Not like they are offended by something a little more offensive. :rolleyes:

They are nutcases; no need to file ridiculous lawsuits to prove that.

Vanilla, tha ACLU isn’t trying to outlaw Christianity. If you are going to stand by this position, please give an example.

More than one person is offended but this isn’t about being offended. Its about the seperation of church and state.

I don’t think they’re nutcases. I’m not Christian and if I had a cross on the seal of my state it would just be one more reminder to me of how I don’t belong.

Its a religious symbol on a government seal. It doesn’t belong and its no wonder that L.A. won’t fight it.

I’m glad the ACLU challenges these things, because even when they lose, at least a boundary is set.

There is so much legal crap out there that hasn’t even been tested in the courts – I’m glad our civil rights are spelled out by dozens of court decisions.

Sure sure, that’s why they take cases like this one:
http://www.freep.com/news/education/utica12_20040512.htm

Because they’re trying to lull Christians into a false sense of security!

I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. Religious guidance and services are considered to be something that many soldiers in the field DO consider to be a basic need, and thus the military supplies them.

But the circumstance is special: it’s providing services for armed men and women who need them as a condition of their being sent to foriegn lands, possibly to die, on behalf of the taxpayers.

Anyone who needs a chaplain can most certainly request one, and chaplains are provided for a large range of faiths and practices.

Exactly: a service these men and women need in the field of battle.

If you agree, then what the heck are you arguing about? Is it just a knee-jerk reaction that you have to ramble on in opposition without realizing that your ramble ends up right alongside the view you were ostensibly complaining about?

Actually, almost no one in this thread is really arguing strongly that the L.A. County seal is a clear breach of SOCAS. I said myself that you could make a case that it’s just symbolizing part of the area’s history (Spanish missions).

Who’s the “we” in “In God We Trust”? It’s the National Motto of the United States, by Act of Congress. If “In God We Trust” were just something churches put up on their signboards, it would be obvious to any passer-by that the “we” who are proclaiming their trust in God are the members of the congregation of that church, all of whom have voluntarily joined. (Well, and minor children not old enough to make decisions like that for themselves.) But it’s the National Motto of the United States. The “we” supposedly refers to the people of the United States. Of which I am one. And I don’t trust in any God or gods (since I don’t believe in any God or gods).

(And many an atheist has run into some form of this old saw: “Well, if you don’t believe in God, how come you take all that money that says ‘In God We Trust’ on it? Why don’t you just send all that to me? Yuk-yuk-yuk!” :rolleyes: )

Atheist: Why does the national motto of the country should contain a religious reference? After all, this is a religiously very diverse country, and many Americans aren’t believers in any sort of God, and we’re supposed to have separation of church and state and a secular government.
Believers: Oh, gosh, who pays any attention to that? It’s just a historical relic. Besides, it’s not really “religious”; it’s just “ceremonial deism”. It doesn’t really mean anything.
Atheist: Well, I think we should change it.
Believers: WHAT?!? Change our sacred National Motto! It’s a priceless part of our National Heritage and a profound expression of our deep heartfelt faith in the LORD God! How dare you!

That’s good. We’re also not supposed to have interference by the churches in the rights of people who don’t choose to become members of those churches. (Of course churches can exercise their freedom of speech to try to peacefully persuade the rest of us to join up, but they can’t enlist the government on their side to do so.)

Buck, a couple of questions, but first, I do respect your reservations, no pun intended. (1) Are you equally adamant about the pagan goddess that appears on the seal? And (2) would you be concerned about a councilman who wears a cross around his neck at official meetings?

And while they may not have a specific chaplain (quick search didn’t turn up anything), the Armed Forces do provide information to assist chaplains in understanding Wiccan servicemembers.

Well, as I was pointing out, I’m not adamant about the cross on the seal. So I guess I’m roughly equally as apathetic about the pagan goddess on the seal.

I don’t want to change the National Motto to “In Pomona We Trust”, though.

No. There’s a huge difference between an individual’s expression of his or her religious beliefs, and official endorsement of them by the government (in this case, the county).

Out of curiousity, if over time eighty percent of all US citizens felt a return to slavery would be a good thing…

Just to clarify (I was originally going to put another sentence in there): I don’t really think the L.A. County seal necessarily constitutes such an official endorsment. I’m just saying that if the county did do something to officially endorse the religious beliefs of the commissioners (or anybody else), that would be wrong.

If you took all the religions honoring God in the world, stuck them in a cooking pot and simmered them down to their essential ingrediates, you would find love.

Love one another, harm no one, do unto others, etc.
They are interchangeable at their source, as all humans are.

It is our focus on differences instead of similies that create all the trouble in the world. In other words our Egos.

Love