Duly noted, change my above comment to “fundamental Christians and atheists”
Frankly, it isn’t a symbol of god, or anything like that.
It is a god forsaken CROSS. Y’know, two perpendicular lines intersecting.
If anyone read the 49th post (the one no one ever reads), you’d see that I brought this up before - the swastika. While used by Nazi Germany, the swastika has been in use by cultures all around the world for thousands of years. In many cases, companies and religious people have been forced to take down swastika symbols because people were afraid of offending anyone.
One symbol is not monopolized by one system.
It is a damned cross.
It symbolizes Spanish missions.
Next thing you know, the ACLU will be on my ass for using the letter “t”
It’s a big part of California’s history. That isn’t going to change. It seems senseless to remove a symbol from this seal, when it never was put up there to “endorse” religion. It is acknowledging California’s rich history. And I’m sure that’s why that symbol has remained, all these years, on the seal. Because Angelenos (most of them, anyway) knew what it meant. It was about the Missions—always and forever—that’s all it was about. That will never be purged from California’s history. Churches, crosses, Father this, Priest that—it’s all gonna be around for a long, long time. That’s history for you.
You’re going to have to change it again. I’m Jewish. And I can’t think of anybody who knows me ever describing me as a fundamentalist.
So a cross, used to represent a mission is not a religious symbol? This isn’t just some symbol made of perpendicular lines, that coincidentally looks like the symbol of Christianity. It is intentionally a cross, in order to represent the missions.
I still say that a small, stylized picture of a mission would be a better way to represent the missions. One poster said that this would be ineffective as that style of architecture is common and used on many types of buildings in the area. They then defeated that point by informing us the style is known as- mission style!
Nope. It is a symbol of the missions that happens to also represent Christianity. No one would be complaining if it represented a Native American symbol (except maybe the swastika). But none of that changes the importance of the Spanish missionaries who founded most of modern California, especially Los Angeles County.
I believe the symbol of the mission with a bell is copyrighted by the company that makes Mission Tortillas. :-p
I see what you are saying - I just disagree that the cross represents Christianity.
I’m almost to the point of saying, “are you from LA? No? Then shut up.” It is important to understand how profound the historical significance of this is, and removing the cross would require a complete redesign of an already overcrowded logo, but knowing LA politics, YEARS of political infighting over it, millions of dollars spent to change it… all so a few people can feel less like Christianity is being shoved into their faces by a tiny cross on a county seal thousands of miles away from them (never heard anyone from here complain!)
“Mission style” house or building ain’t the same thing as a church. A church is a church, a house is a house. If the seal starts having this building on it, will it be clear that it is a house, or a church? What if the mission has a cross on top of it? It’s now obviously a religious mission—which is the whole point. To allude to California’s history.
Would you object to a picture of a mission with a cross on it (so people will know that it is a mission, instead of just some house or other building)?
Yes! I’m almost at the point of wondering why people who aren’t from the area (I am guessing, at least in some cases) are bothered by this. I immediately knew what the crosses meant.
Look—I’m a Christian but I’m very much against shoving religion down other people’s throats. But this is not an example of it. Honest.
Zagadka, did you go on field trips to the missions when you were a kid? I did. My nephew did the whole “making a model of a mission for school” thing a few years back, so I am guessing that they’re still cramming California history down the kid’s throats. (Taking a kid to a church during school hours! Horrors! ) We learned all about Junipero Serra, blah blah blah. When you study all of that stuff, you tend to remember at least a little of it. Especially the missions—they were cool. And that’s why I’m guessing that no one local ever bothered to bitch about the seal.
Yea. I’ve been to a lot of the missions, because my mother is a photographer, and I always followed in her footsteps, so now I’m partly a photographer. The missions are located in the most beautiful areas! We spent a whole summer just driving around California taking pictures - and a lot of the places we stopped were missions or early settlements. My mother has done the same thing around New Mexico and parts of Arizona.
We also study the Battle of Chino Hills, where a mule was killed as one of the only casualties of the California revolution.
I think the reason the missions resonate so much, and are so important, is that they represent not only our hispanic heritage (OK, works for me, since I’m a Garcia - not all of us are - but you’ve gotta respect the history), but it represents something rare in the history of the Americas:
GETTING ALONG WITH THE NATIVES.
Yes, amazingly enough, California has one of the most bloodless histories anywhere on the planet. No major battles were ever fought here. No wars. The Spanish missionaries - and pay attention, non-Californians, this is why they are so respected - GOT ALONG with the natives, taught them some agriculture, settled down with them, shared traditions and customs. Yes, they converted some of them to Catholicism, but it was a symbiotic relationship. There was never a great indian war with the missionaries. They came in peace, settled in peace, and lived in peace for hundreds of years, until America came along and caused all kinds of trouble. Maybe we were lucky that the right Europeans found the right Natives at the right time, but they got along, damnit. Those missions represent a history and a culture of peace, cooperation, friendliness. They were never raized by restless tribes. They never had stockades built around them. There weren’t cannon mounted on them. WE GOT ALONG. SO STOP SCREWING IT UP.
Wow, thanks. My memory of the history was rusty (I just remember that everyone got along well and guys like Serra were much beloved). Thanks for sharing all of that!
Gosh, we should try to do a count of how many streets and areas are named after Father Junipero Serra! That should tell you something! He was greatly loved and respected. That was drummed into my little head as a child. It was all really important. Anyone who was raised in California (especially Los Angeles area) or has lived in California for a while should know that.
That’s dandy, but do you seriously believe that everyone else will be satisfied if they still see that cross up there? The way things are going now, I wouldn’t be surprised if some non-Californian “outsider” would get their knickers in a bunch if there was a picture of a church with a (gasp!) cross on the LA seal. Because they don’t get the whole picture, just like they don’t get it NOW.
As some of us have been saying all along, those of us who are from California (or well aware of its history) immediately figured out what the crosses (as they are now) meant on the seal. We knew. We knew the crosses meant missions all along. And for all these years, nobody local made a huge stink and demanded the hassle and expense of the seal being redesigned, in order to make the intent of the crosses clear. It was clear from the start.
If someone who isn’t from California or has barely spent time in California doesn’t know about what those crosses have meant all this time, well, it ain’t their seal, is it?
I like to say, we may not have much history, but we have a PROUD history.
Not a pride of military conquest, or victory, or any of that. Pride of self. Pride of diversity. Pride of free thinking. Pride of peace. Pride of hard work.
And Cesar Chavez, a hero for a new generation.
I’m even proud of little Fort Tejon, our palty contribution to the defense of the Union, should the Johnny Rebs decide to invade California. Hey, we sent people - it is just that the war was over by the time they got there! Not our fault!
It is ironic that our darkest history is that of what brought so much to us - the Gold Rush. But I guess that is to be expected with a sudden influx of wealth, industry, and Americans.
We are damn proud of our state. We are leaders in agriculture, industry, and the arts. Like the LA County seal says, we do a little of everything - no, a LOT of everything, and we have a rich culture to boot. Shove that up your pipe and smoke it, Vermont!
And we informed you that no, the cross does not represent Christianity, informed you of some local history behind it, gave you a cup of tea, and showed you the door.
I think it’s been clear enough to the locals for quite some time now. I knew right off what it meant. I didn’t feel there was any ambiguity.
What? Do you think that Los Angeles is some hotbed of ultra-conservative thinking? You think that no local Angeleno who felt deeply in the separation of church and state couldn’t have made a huge stink ages ago, if the meaning of that seal wasn’t clear?
How come I don’t ever remember hearing about that? How come it hasn’t already happened? If the seal was that offensive and looked like it was promoting religion, it would have been gone a long time ago. Local politicians would have done it.
Dude. We’re talking about Los Angeles. Think about it.
Los Angeles. Come on. It ain’t the hotbed of conservatism. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe the reason no big stink has been made until now is because most people in the LA region—conservative, liberal, atheist, Christian, etc. etc., got it?
Look. The seal is precious little space. The little itty bitty crosses symbolized the Spanish missionaries in a very economical way. Personally, I don’t know how they’re going to cram a picture of a mission on that seal, along with the Hollywood Bowl and all the other stuff they’ve got on there. The crosses did the job, short and sweet, and it seemed like most people got it up until now. Now the seal might end up being redesigned in such a way so it’ll look like crap. And for what? To change something that most people in the area already got (and were not offended by)? It’s lame.
It is important to understand how profound the historical significance of this is, and removing the cross would require a complete redesign of an already overcrowded logo, but knowing LA politics, YEARS of political infighting over it, millions of dollars spent to change it… all so a few people can feel less like Christianity is being shoved into their faces by a tiny cross on a county seal thousands of miles away from them (never heard anyone from here complain!)