Should the Commanche helicopter have been cancelled?

Great Debates
1

I don’t have much knowledge of military aircraft/tactics/costs/benefits, etc., but I was wondering why the decision was made to cancell the Commanche helicopter program.

After all, the program had already produced two working prototypes, correct? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that well over half of the costs of a modern military aircraft come from R and D. Since the program had already produced two working prototypes, why not just finish the program out? It seems as though we were getting close to production. Is there any chance of the program being revised in the near future, or will the United States next advanced attack helicopter be a completely different design?

So, anyone with knowledge or an opinion, please, share.

Thanks,
threemae

2

Well, it is pretty basic… ordering that many choppers would be bloody expensive, not to mention the logistics and tactical and strategic changes that would have to be made.

On the other hand, they can redirect the R&D to other programs (which is what they have done).

3

I agree with the decision to cancel the program.

-The concept of a ‘light recon/attack helicopter’ doesn’t seem as impressive these days, with UAV’s popping up all over.

-The Comanche would not be as usefull as a gunship as is the Apache, and some Apaches are slated to recieve the sensor suite from the Comanche, giving them the same advanced targetting ability. All that is lost is the stealth, and that is not usefull, unless you are fighting an enemy with some decent battlefield radar.

-Technology developed from the program will live on, both in the next-generation combat UAVs, (the Army is rather interested in getting its hands on some true combat UAVs for CAS, so they no longer have to rely on the Airforce), and in the next generation of ‘heavy’ attack helicopters. (Or more likely, a series of ‘enhanced’ Apaches’, , since the more distant future seems to be skewing towards unmanned aircraft.)

-Given the types of conflicts we will probably be fighting over the next decade(s), I would even argue that America would be well served by coming up with our own MiL-24 ‘Hind’ variant. (With greater weapons capacity than a Apache, a tad faster, and could be more heavily armored using American composite material.) Not saying it should be a ‘Hind’ specifically, but the concept is sound: A really big, really heavily armed, really fast, and really heavily armored helicopter that can also carry a few troops (or reloads, etc). Given that American technology is superior to Russian technology, we can take the concept further.

The Comanche, like the Crusader, are the last vestiges of Cold War programs that we had. They are not giant wastes of money, however. The Comanche program has provided much usefull data. The Crusader program also has provided technology which will now go into a light-weight gun system (I forget the name.)

4

Well, from what I understand of it (and this is all civilian info, I don’t claim any special insight), there were two main problems.

  1. The stealth aspects didn’t really work. It was stealthier than a normal helicopter, but that’s not saying much. So it would have relied on low level flight to avoid radar, which is what non-stealth helicopters do anyway.

  2. All the design strictures of a closed weapons bay (which you must have for stealth) meant that it was carrying less firepower than a truck of punks headed to a rat shoot. That limits its usefulness to stealth missions involving surgical strikes on isolated targets, and that makes it redundant to stealth airplanes while doing the job more poorly.

As for future directions, I think helicopters will be a major growth area for unmanned vehicles. They fly slow enough that remote control is practical. You’ll still see a lot of normal choppers for transport of course.

5

Yup, Brutus called it right. The Comanche’s mission has been superceded by technological advances in other areas. It happens, but we can fold the research over into whatever whizzbang-chopper program best suits the needs of the war on terror. Airwolf anyone?

6

I was thinking Blue Thunder myself…

7

Voltron. Skip all the baby step advances, go straight to the fifty foot tall indestructible robot that can just trash anything that comes near it with a huge flaming sword.

And it can fly too.

8

Let us not forget the laser whip and those little spinny discus things that came off his shoulders.

Speaking of Airwolf, anyone remember the “other” Airwolf which had a red nose cone and a laser? Did it really have a laser, or am I combining eeeevil Airwolf with eeeevil Knight Rider and getting that?

9

Man, nice threadjack :wink:

/all I’m saying is that anything made out of giant mechanical lions can’t be bad.

10

Comanche was a clusterfuck. It is the helicopter equivalent of the Bradley fighting vehicle. I have been going to the American Helicopter Society’s annual forums for about 7 years now where they were constantly displaying what they were up to with it (as well as being in the industry and having friends who are working directly on it). The problem is that modern warfare changes faster than the design cycle of a modern aircraft. That and that the requirements were changed a dozen times.

If they had gone through with the original requirements for the aircraft they would have been in production a while ago, but like the Bradley they have changed them continuosly through the design cycle. Thus the aircraft transforms to something it was never meant to be and sucks up ungodly amounts of money in the process.

The aircraft was originally designed to fight the Russians in Europe (remember it was conceived 20 years ago). It weant from a light stealthy recon and logistics platform to an attack copter. Of course this requires hiding all the armaments in concealed bays, and the entire rotor system (which is very advanced) has had a huge number of minor problems. Yes, they have a few prototypes out now, but the final vehicles would be very different and there are many issues still to be addressed.

Right now the only new helicopters the Army is looking at are UAVs and heavy lift vehicles (a recent big push) to match the plans they now have of how to fight wars in the future. The Comanche just does not fit into this plan. They should have scrapped the program a while ago. Mind you, I think the aircraft is great, it is just many things that it was never meant to be.

As it is there is a huge wealth of information that will be incorporated into exising and future rotorcraft. Even in this regard the program (dollar for dollar) would be considered a failure, but the benefits seriously mitigate the losses.

11

Better yet would be to revisit the 1947 agreements and change them to allow the Army to use fixed-wing tactical attack craft and transfer all the Warthogs to the Army.* Choppers do really well with on-spot delivery, but they will always be vulnerable as attack ships.

  • Thus would have the added benefit of stopping the USAF from continuing to propose converting the F-16 to the next generation F-104G and killing all their pilots.
12

I see you one Voltron and raise you one Predaking. :slight_smile:

13

Not that it’s a bad idea, but you do realize, don’t you, that: “Faster, better armored and better armed” is much like the old military axiom of: “Cheap, fast, Good: Pick two”? There are always tradeoffs and the more armor and arms you put on there, the slower it will go unless you redesign it for a better engine and related machinery.

14

Well, I meant ‘fast’ as in ‘horizontal airspeed’, not ‘nimble like the marmot’. The MiL-24 Hind is either a tiny bit faster or slower than the Apache, which ain’t shabby for a big-arsed beast that can (in theory) carry a comporable load, plus either reloads or troops. Sure, she ain’t too manueverable…

Or maybe, just maybe, I am fixating a bit on Russian gear, since I just watched Red Dawn and The Beast in one sitting…

15

How very poetic, Brutus :wink:

16

To help the non-armchair generals follow along:

The Comanche.

The Apache.

The Hind.

The (hypothetical) armed UAV, aka UCAV.

The vaunted Marmot.

17

You’re at least mostly correct; the laser is confirmed in the reviews, but the comments seem to lean toward Redwolf, the second chopper, being all red, not just the nose cone. Hell if I can remember, though.

18

Hmmm… interesting stuff.

Just because the Commanche was newer and cooler looking, I had assumed that it could blow more shit up, but I guess that I was wrong on that. An Apache still appears to have more combat effectiveness.

In retrospect, trying to make a stealth helicopter does seem a bit silly, especially considering the air-supperiority forces which would doubtless be deployed with the RH-66 and the other risks from small arms fire or MANPAD missiles.

And that Hind seems to be a pretty cool helicopter at that.

-threemae