All of the funerals for the victims of the shooting have been paid for by the government, all the medical expenses for the injured are covered by our healthcare system, our government is even going to be repatriation costs for any family members who (for any reason) can no longer live in New Zealand. Does that sound like a tyrannical shithole to you?
Today in America the Secretary of State (an evangelical Christian who believes in the “Rapture” ) held a conference call that was restricted to “faith-based media”, to discuss his upcoming trip to the middle east. We found out today that the US government uses several clandestine shelters to detain immigrant children. And those are things that we found out about today. If you want a list of everything that the United States has done over the last two years that have edged it towards “tyrannical shithole” status I could be here all week.
Sex work is legal in NZ. But in the United States we had a case that hit the headlines recently where the police installed secret cameras to record two consenting adults fucking in attempts to prove “trafficking” was happening. And nobody in America even thinks that this is a problem. NOBODY.
New Zealand isn’t alone in making it an offence to distribute or possess an objectionable publication. Its only a matter of degree.
The evidence is crystal fucking clear. Go visit their website, pick any particular thread, open it up and start reading it. They indulge in open and clear real life stalking, photographs of homes, publishing of addresses: trust me, as someone who has been observing the rise of the alt-right for the last four years k#$#farms is close to the worst of the worst. You do yourself no favours defending him and his ilk.
It sounds like a place that doesn’t value the right to free expression to anywhere near the degree that the USA does. Given Obama’s attacks on free speech, and President Trump’s attacks on reporters as ‘enemies of the people’, I would hope that it’s readily-apparent to people of all political stripes that giving government the power to declare things “objectionable” on a whim and imprisoning teenagers for it (you do hate imprisoned youth, right?) is fraught with peril. If you want to throw out some what-about-isms about the US, have at it. You’ll not see me claiming we’ve got an unblemished recent history either. We’re just a damn sight better than New Zealand.
Sure. What North Korea does is only a matter of degree too. NZ appears to lie somewhere between the USA and the DPRK. I hope they’ll move more in our direction (and we’ll quit moving in North Korea’s direction).
…“not valuing the right to free expression to anywhere near the degree that the USA” is not even fucking close to being a tyrannical shithole. That statement was hyperbolic nonsense and you should retract.
ROFL!
We don’t have a white-supremacist leader who makes daily attacks on the press. Its not a matter of “whataboutism” and more of a matter that we aren’t even on the same fucking planet.
How the hell did you come up with that determination? What the fuck do you know about New Zealand laws? You called us a “tyrannical shithole” based on a couple of sentences from an online article. What a ridiculous way to make an assessment.
I’m perfectly happy with the direction we are heading thanks.
There seems to be something else going on with the two arrests made regarding the video - in at least one case there has been suggestions that the person arrested may have had foreknowledge of the attacks. I’m not sure this is just about the video fwiw.
I’d quote various freedom, corruption, and democracy indices but I suspect it would be in vain - a sort of “no True Scotsman” situation if it’s not the American freedoms of the 1st and 2nd amendments.
Let me just say this then:
In the wake and mourning of the very worst terrorist attack in our country’s history we’ve banned a video and made a couple of arrests.
What did the US do when it suffered its worst attack?
Talk to me again about NZ being somewhere between USA and DPRK after we’ve invaded a couple of countries and set up an extra-judicial prison camp.
The press freedom index: New Zealand ranked 8th, the United States ranked 45th.
New Zealand ranked number one, the United States ranked 8th.
I could keep going but I doubt I’d find much different. It appears by every single objective measure New Zealand is “much more free” than the United States is, and the United States is much closer to “becoming the DPRK” than New Zealand will ever be.
…of course they fucking did. Do you not understand what you read? He was arrested for both “Inciting extreme violence” and “distributing prohibited materials.” He is free to express his personal views on political or other sensitive topics but he isn’t free to incite others to hurt or kill others.
I certainly trust the people who prepared that report to make sure they “scored it correctly” than a random person on the internet. And even if we chose to ignore this particular report based on your cherry-picking we still have all the others that pretty much say exactly the same thing.
I “cherry-picked” the one bit of the report that seemed relevant to the thread topic: “Should the New Zealand Live Stream of Massacre be Censored”. How NZ treats gays (G3) or whether their last elections were fair (A1-3) doesn’t really seem all that relevant to a discussion about censorship.
The other indexes you cited strike me as similarly off-topic:
Not a lot of journalists get assaulted in New Zealand. I’m not sure that tells us much about their (lack of) respect for the free speech rights of their subjects.
Notice anything there in the bit I highlighted? The Frazer Institute’s “Human Freedom Index” is just recycling the Freedom House’s ranking (your first cite, which we’ve agreed to ignore), flawed as it is. No shit they “pretty much say exactly the same thing”.
…calling New Zealand a “tyrannical shithole” is pretty fucking well off topic as well, don’t you agree? You made that claim. If that claim is based exclusively on a single incident that we don’t even know the facts yet then I suggest you retract it because I’ve provided plenty of evidence that New Zealand is far from being in a state of tyranny. I’m refuting your assertion. If your assertion was “off topic” then you shouldn’t have posted it.
Yep. Not a lot of journalists get assaulted in New Zealand. That’s an important metric in determining press freedom. The threat of assault stifles free and open reporting.
I’ve provided more cites than you’ve provided. Just accept it: New Zealand is more free than the United States and you guys are closer to the DPRK than we will ever be.
No, I don’t agree. On the topic of censorship, New Zealand appears to be significantly worse than I realized. Sure, you guys treat gays nice, and your elections appear to be fair, so kudos there, but those are not the topic of this thread.
I’ve found your evidence to be erroneous or irrelevant and generally unconvincing. Others are free to examine your “plenty of evidence”, and my analysis of it, and reach their own conclusions. I’m not inclined to “retract” my opinion on the matter, at least as of yet.
Sure, and so does imprisoning people for posting video of the event.
See above. I disagree, and this being IMHO, and me not living in New Zealand, I’m free to say so.
Feel free to express your opinions about what HurricaneDitka or anyone else posts in this forum, but if you want to actually attack the poster and not the posts, please do so in the Pit.
…“being significantly worse than you realized” does not make New Zealand a tyrannical shithole. You can’t justify that statement. You can’t quantify that statement. It was a needless, thoughtless turd of an insult that you dropped into this thread for no reason at all. It most certainly was off-topic and you should own up to that.
You’ve provided zero evidence New Zealand is a tyrannical shithole. A single datapoint does not prove your point.
You should retract. There are actual tyrannical shithole’s out there that deserve that title. You should reserve those words for countries that actually deserve it.
Except that wasn’t the only reason he has been detained. You know that. Why are you ignoring that? Pretending that he isn’t also being detained for, among other things, posting a photo of the mosque in question (in the weeks prior to the shooting) with the words “target identified” on top of it, as well as several other incitements to extreme violence? Why are you pretending that none of that happened?
You are free to do whatever the fuck you like. The objective evidence though clearly shows New Zealand is a free country, it is objectively more free than the United States of America, and that if any country is “closer to the DPRK” it is the United States, not New Zealand. It is entirely possible for an opinion to be wrong. “Its just my opinion” isn’t a defense against objective fact.
Loach, with a related question, given that NZ is aggressively criminally sanctioning people if disseminate, and maybe even possess, the video, what is the SDMB’s policy about links posted here to sites that still have a copy of the video or manifesto? If the rule is to prohibit mention, then is the reason why that a country has deemed the material illegal to distribute, and if so, why does NZ get a veto, and not, say, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia?
I already picked up a Warning for mentioning the existence of free streaming services, and I’d rather not run afoul of that rule again.
It’s an opinion, in IMHO. I don’t feel the need to “justify” or “quantify” it.
We’ve got at least two datapoints, an 18-year-old and a 22-year-old.
Out of idle curiosity, which countries do you think actually deserve it?
Because the most disconcerting thing your government is doing here is threatening people for possessing the video: “We would like to remind people that it is an offence to distribute or possess an objectionable publication [under the Films Videos and Publications Classifications Act 1993], which carries a penalty of imprisonment”.
Your post here is the first time I can recall hearing that the “target identified” (elsewhere I’d seen it as “target acquired”) post came prior to attack. Do you have a source for that? What about the “several other incitements to extreme violence”? I’d prefer to examine the actual statements myself. Do you have any details, or are you just accepting the authorities’ word on the matter?
Sure, and you’re entitled to your opinion on the matter, as is the Fraser Institute. I don’t think either of them rise to the level of “objective fact”, but here is one: My government hasn’t threatened its citizens with imprisonment for possession of video of the attack. Yours has.