Should the U.S. Military allow Humanist/Secularist/Atheist chaplains?

[Calico_Jack]

@eschereal

Bullshit. Comte was the founder of Comte’s “Religion of Humanity”. He was in no way the singular originator of the idea of secular humanism, nor is his particular atheology representative of all, or even many, humanists, agnostics or atheists. Your argument is ridiculous and holds as much water as a Pastafarian’s head gear.

…and that’s why they need humanist churches and chaplains…

I’m almost starting to think humanism should be called a cult rather than just a ‘religion’, since allegedly one sign of a cult is being intentionally obscure about what one’s beliefs are until people get their feet in the door.

Similar to how how Scientology presents itself as merely a “self help group”, then once people have invested time and money into the organization they bring up the stuff about aliens and body thetans. It’s interesting that humanist seems to try to market itself as merely “atheist groups” or groups for those who just have a “lack of belief in a God”, rather than be up-front about what its actual beliefs and creed is.

[Monty]

@even_sven

@CarnalK

I see nothing right in having someone who thinks religion is bullshit conducting religious services.

Not all Atheists see religion as bullshit. There are entire religious branches that are full of Atheists. Heck, there are entire religions that are primarily Atheist. Not believing in a particular concept of God does not mean you aren’t religious or don’t have spiritual beliefs.

Various branches of Buddhism are non-deist and, yet, there are Buddhist chaplains in the military. I don’t know if Religious Science (aka Science of Mind) has any chaplains in the military. Anyway, the Buddhist chaplain will not conduct services for other denominations. If the military does end up with atheist chaplains, those chaplains will not be conducting services either. What the atheist chaplains will be doing, though, is managing the unit/base/facility religious affairs program to include counseling, arranging for retreats, and the other programs currently managed by the military’s current chaplain crop. Other members of the military will be conducting specifically religious services.

[GIGObuster]

@Calico_Jack

…and that’s why they need humanist churches and chaplains…

I’m almost starting to think humanism should be called a cult rather than just a ‘religion’, since allegedly one sign of a cult is being intentionally obscure about what one’s beliefs are until people get their feet in the door.

Similar to how how Scientology presents itself as merely a “self help group”, then once people have invested time and money into the organization they bring up the stuff about aliens and body thetans. It’s interesting that humanist seems to try to market itself as merely “atheist groups” or groups for those who just have a “lack of belief in a God”, rather than be up-front about what its actual beliefs and creed is.

Meh, as in the past I did look closely to groups like that, so I have to say that what you posted there is just nonsense, you are just using the caricature that religious groups try to paint the humanists as.

[Trinopus]

@ISiddiqui

The statements did indeed sound very linked, to be honest. If you wished to have them considered unlinked, you should have been clearer (like a “for instance” in front of the Scalia sentence).

From you, I’ll buy that. I should have been more careful.

[Bone]

@Trinopus

As is not unusual for you, you conflate two separate things I said and try to pretend I said them as linked.

This is not fair-minded or honest debate practice, but, alas, it is something you do terribly often.

@Bricker

Correct.

My first reaction was that the original intention was that they were linked and that this deflection was offered up when he learned of his timing error.

As is “not unusual for him.”

@Trinopus

From you, I’ll buy that. I should have been more careful.

Please try to avoid making this debate personal.

[/moderating]

[Calico_Jack]

@GIGObuster

Meh, as in the past I did look closely to groups like that, so I have to say that what you posted there is just nonsense, you are just using the caricature that religious groups try to paint the humanists as.

Why do so many groups present themselves as “atheist groups or conventions”, then once you get in the door you find out they have an actual ideology of humanism?

Why don’t they just openly identify as “humanist” instead of the ambiguous term “atheist”, almost like they intentionally want to hide what their beliefs are?

You don’t see Christian churches present themselves as “Congregations for non-Zeus worshipers”.

[Czarcasm]

@Calico_Jack

Why do so many groups present themselves as “atheist groups or conventions”, then once you get in the door you find out they have an actual ideology of humanism?

I have no idea what you are talking about, either about this or what you think atheists believe or don’t believe. I take it you are against atheists getting their foot in the door when it comes to the chaplaincy?

[Calico_Jack]

@Czarcasm

I have no idea what you are talking about, either about this or what you think atheists believe or don’t believe. I take it you are against atheists getting their foot in the door when it comes to the chaplaincy?

Well they aren’t “atheists”, they’re humanists.

You can’t just use “atheist” and “humanist” as interchangeable terms, since the former is a lack of belief, while the later is indeed a belief.

[Czarcasm]

@Calico_Jack

Well they aren’t “atheists”, they’re humanists.

You can’t just use “atheist” and “humanist” as interchangeable terms, since the former is a lack of belief, while the later is indeed a belief.

Don’t give a shit about your personal definitions. What is your opinion about the topic of this thread?

[eschereal]

@Calico_Jack

Well they aren’t “atheists”, they’re humanists.

You can’t just use “atheist” and “humanist” as interchangeable terms, since the former is a lack of belief, while the later is indeed a belief.

What do humanists believe?

[Calico_Jack]

@eschereal

What do humanists believe?

https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/12

Statement of Principles

Drafted by Paul Kurtz
*We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.

We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.

We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.

We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.

We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.

We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.

We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.

We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.

We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.

We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.

We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.

We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.*

[GIGObuster]

@Calico_Jack

Why do so many groups present themselves as “atheist groups or conventions”, then once you get in the door you find out they have an actual ideology of humanism?

Why don’t they just openly identify as “humanist” instead of the ambiguous term “atheist”, almost like they intentionally want to hide what their beliefs are?

You don’t see Christian churches present themselves as “Congregations for non-Zeus worshipers”.

You are still using the caricature that someone told you to apply to the Humanists. As a clue you should know that virtually all the principles you cited are followed by Atheists, Agnostics and even Deists.

[Calico_Jack]

@GIGObuster

You are still using the caricature that someone told you to apply to the Humanists. As a clue you should know that virtually all the principles you cited are followed by Atheists, Agnostics and even Deists.

Well Humanism has its own statement of faith, it’s own churches, it’s own chaplains, so… it’s pretty damn close to a religion.

If the only thing it doesn’t have is a lack of belief in a God, well so do some types of Buddhism.

So, no I say that groups like “American Atheists” should be honest and call themselves “American Humanists”, since that’s what they are - believing in a God is just what they aren’t.

Seems like their intentional avoidance in admitting they’re humanists is a sneaky way of luring people in by marketing themselves to atheists, as well as just a slippery way of avoiding having to give apologetics for their own statement of principles. This basically gives them the leeway in being able to criticize other religions, while hiding behind the “atheism is just a lack of belief” line when their own beliefs come under fire.

[GIGObuster]

@Calico_Jack

Well Humanism has its own statement of faith, it’s own churches, it’s own chaplains, so… it’s pretty damn close to a religion.

If the only thing it doesn’t have is a lack of belief in a God, well so do some types of Buddhism.

So, no I say that groups like “American Atheists” should be honest and call themselves “American Humanists”, since that’s what they are - believing in a God is just what they aren’t.

As the cites showed, you are wrong. In reality many Atheists do not want to be lumped with the Humanists that use the law when it simplifies the movement as being like a religion. The point though is that even the Humanists that use the law tell the Atheists and Humanists that do not like how the law calls it to relax, even the law does clarify in important ways that it does not consider Humanism a religion.

@Calico_Jack

Seems like their intentional avoidance in admitting they’re humanists is a sneaky way of luring people in by marketing themselves to atheists, as well as just a slippery way of avoiding having to give apologetics for their own statement of principles. This basically gives them the leeway in being able to criticize other religions, while hiding behind the “atheism is just a lack of belief” line when their own beliefs come under fire.

An again, you do rely on ignorance to say that.

[Uzi]

@Calico_Jack

https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/12

Statement of Principles

Drafted by Paul Kurtz

Can’t possibly be a religion. Nothing about handing over daughters to angry mobs, sacrificing sons to oneself, or the smiting of unbelievers.

Why don’t they just openly identify as “humanist” instead of the ambiguous term “atheist”, almost like they intentionally want to hide what their beliefs are?

Might as well go down the rabbit hole here, but who do you perceive they are hiding their beliefs from and for what purpose?

[Calico_Jack]

@Uzi

Can’t possibly be a religion. Nothing about handing over daughters to angry mobs, sacrificing sons to oneself, or the smiting of unbelievers.

Pffh…

Might as well go down the rabbit hole here, but who do you perceive they are hiding their beliefs from and for what purpose?

Not sure, most likely so that they can avoid having their beliefs out and the open and simply rebut objections by sidetracking the discussion to “atheism” and pointing out that “atheism” isn’t a belief, despite Humanism being their belief.

[Uzi]

@Calico_Jack

Not sure, most likely so that they can avoid having their beliefs out and the open and simply rebut objections by sidetracking the discussion to “atheism” and pointing out that “atheism” isn’t a belief, despite Humanism being their belief.

I ‘believe’ in not being a dick and promoting human welfare. I ‘believe’ in tooth fairies. See the difference?
Just because you believe in some fundamental principles of living your life doesn’t make those beliefs and the activities around them a religion.