I’m a little confused on the spelling “Wiegers”, the common English translation of the name of that ethnic group is “Uyghur” (like a lot of words from foreign languages with a different alphabet, the direct transcription is open to interpretation–Uighur, Uyghers and a few others are also valid) “Wieger” is like the hooked-on-phonics way of spelling the sound of the word.
That is a name (and situation) that I recognize, thank you.
Also I just fundamentally disagree that the 1980 Olympic boycott did anything at all. We were already running a Cold War against the USSR and started funding the Mujahideen specifically to get Russians killed there, which shows much more about our feelings in regard to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan than our Olympic boycott.
Now, did I support or oppose the 1980 Olympic boycott? I’d say I supported it, but it was in line with our Cold War stance against the USSR broadly.
To me a boycott of a country that, depending on the month, is sometimes our largest trading partner, that we’ve allowed to join the WTO, that we do so much business with, is stupid. If we have a real problem with what China is doing in Xinjiang then let’s take real action on it. If not, then I see little value in an Olympic boycott. I bring up other awful countries we do things with because those relationships should be scrutinized as well if we’re going to decide that we suddenly care about human rights in China.
FWIW, there’s no evidence anything on the scale of the Holocaust is going to happen in Xinjiang. I’m saying very specifically–death camps with murder chambers designed to mass-eradicate Uyghur people. There’s certainly bad shit going on there, but it’s probably more on par with the gulag system of the old USSR in terms of how “shitty” it is–and bears some similarities, forced deportations to camps, forced re-education, suppression of undesirable religious beliefs etc etc.
But if we have a real problem with that we need to basically begin a new Cold War against China, otherwise what’s the point of crying about it and doing nothing.
Sure, it’s debatable, no doubt. I do think it had an effect…it made the Soviet Union look bad. I think with the CCP it will have a greater effect, in that they really, really need a propaganda win right now, and definitely don’t need a boycott blackening their eye further. Also, the Chinese are just more into the whole face thing than the Soviets were, so I think such a move would hit them harder. But I concede that the effect is debatable and I think this is a valid argument, FWIW.
I agree. We have (through multiple presidents from both parties) looked the other way on China in the past. Hell, the previous administration flip/flopped on this multiple times, to where you had to ask what day this was to see what our current policy is wrt China.
Trouble is, we didn’t have a lot of data on the scale of the Holocaust until after we and the Russians were really driving into the heart of Eastern Europe and then Germany. And we didn’t have a lot of data on just how bad the Japanese were acting either until we had moved into their territory and found out directly. In Xinjiang (and Tibet before that, and potentially inner Mongolia right now) we just don’t know…we only have mainly unconfirmed reports and some video, but no real access to do an investigation. What we have heard is bad enough, though, especially if you aren’t looking for death camps in the sense of Nazi death camps, but look at the aggregate actions of the CCP against these ethnic people wrt mass forced steralization, deliberate destruction of their language and culture and all the rest. Perhaps it’s not as bad as what the Nazis did…from a percentage of the population is certainly isn’t.
I think the new cold war has already started, and it wasn’t even us who pulled that trigger. The CCP is already in cold war mode. We’ll have to agree to disagree that this would be ‘doing nothing’…I honestly think this would be a huge blow to the CCP if the US boycotted the games, especially if other countries also decided that because the US was doing this they should too.
I think you massively, and it’s hard to state how massively, overestimate how much the CCP “needs” the propaganda “win” of hosting an Olympics game. I also think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of Chinese nationalism. If we boycotted the games it would all but certainly create a rally-around-the-flag effect with Chinese nationalists howling that evil Western imperialist capitalist pig dogs were “interfering in the internal affairs of China.” It would accomplish the exact opposite of what you would hope.
shrug I’m pretty much in the same boat. I don’t think you understand the nature of the CCPs power, the effect of something like this on their population, already reeling from a number of other blows, or the effect of something like a boycott would have in China, especially at this time. I won’t try and belittle your opinion, however, just say that I disagree and chalk it up to you not really understanding either the situation or the nature of what we are discussing, as I think it’s valid enough for some of their society.
I’ll leave you with a final thought. If the CCP REALLY thought it wasn’t an issue they wouldn’t have tried so hard to shut down countries from boycotting the Olympics. They wouldn’t have exerted either the type or amount of pressure they have to shut down even talk about a boycott by other countries. They have…which means, like me, they actually take this seriously. Of course, we both could be wrong and you right. 
I wish we would boycott. I wish a lot of things - I wish we didn’t rely on Chinese made goods so much, I wish we didn’t look the other way in places like Saudi (or China) when the truth is uncomfortable.
I wish there were two permanent Olympic sites (Winter and Summer) and the games were always played there.
Whether a boycott would do any good, I can’t say.
Fun fact: the only episode out of ten years of L&O: Criminal Intent that was not included in the DVD collection is the one about corruption in the IOC. Obviously, someone is sensitive about their corruption, and has the power to do at least something to keep it quiet.
So if I could wish the IOC away, I would, too.
And I’ll counter if you have EVER seen the Chinese domestic reaction ANYTIME the West, be it a government or celebrity or etc even LIGHTLY chides the PRC, you’d realize the US boycotting the Beijing Olympics would do more to help Xi’s domestic standing than anything that’s happened in the last few years.
How do you think Americans would react if a foreign country spoke out against something we were doing? Did you forget “Freedom Fries?” Even people inclined to agree with the French suddenly had a streak of patriotism.
I can think of several examples of China reacting to the west, especially if we are talking domestically. A lot of people have this impression that China is a monolith, that the CCP is a monolith. Both are wrong.
You in fact touched on the reason this would be important, but you apparently don’t realize it. If there was a boycott it would be a huge embarrassment to China…it would be a huge embarrassment to the CCP…but most importantly, it would be a huge embarrassment to Xi and his faction. A faction that in some ways is only barely holding on by it’s fingernails as hit after hit comes China’s way, most of them self inflicted. And the other factions are circling around because there is blood in the water.
Would the ultra nationalists have exactly the attitude you are saying? Absolutely they would. That’s why I said your argument is valid…for a segment of the population. But China isn’t a monolith, the CCP isn’t a monolith, and a boycott would widen the fissures.
I think that America and Americans are, just like the Chinese, complex and not monolithic. Had did the nationalist types react to ‘Freedom Fries’? Just like you are saying. And that was a heavy narrative…at the time. What about today? How many folks are all ‘FREEDOM FRIES!!!’ today? How is that narrative playing out today?
Again, would the nationalist types react with anger and handwaves about a boycott? Absolutely. And Xi’s faction would play it down or even fan the flames of that nationalism. But others would see this as a major failure by Xi and his faction, and many would be highly dismayed by it. China would lose prestige and face on the world stage…Xi would lose those things. And his faction too.
You are trying to boil down the entire nation of China and all it’s people based on the ultra-nationalist types on social media, and boil down a very volatile political situation to be Xi and his faction represents all of the CCP…and that is simply wrong. The fact that you don’t seem to realize that tells me about how much of this you understand. Hell, the fact that you brought up Freedom Fries™ as an illustration tells me you might not know that much about America or Americans. It was a snapshot in time, and is not really relevant to how China, the Chinese people or the CCP as a whole would react to a boycott AT THIS TIME AND WITH WHAT’S GOING ON TODAY PLAYING OUT.
Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree. We both obviously think we are right and the other just can’t see it.
That’s the real thing here. It would be a wish, since it’s simply not going to happen. This is just a thought exercise in the end. Neither the US nor any other major nation is likely to boycott. It’s possible that IF the US boycotted others would follow suit…the Australians and Japanese seem most likely to me, but maybe some others. But the US isn’t going to boycott. It doesn’t even seem like it’s a serious discussion in the US.
I certainly wish they weren’t as corrupt as they are. Like I said, this isn’t even about China…in the past US cities as well as European ones played the buy the Olympics game. But they are what we have allowed them to become, much like everything else.
I’m not talking about the CCP dude. I’m talking about Chinese social media, Chinese journalists etc. Did you see how much shit John Cena got in over misspeaking about Taiwan? This is a pro-wrestler turned actor of no particular import. And he didn’t cower and apologize (in broken Mandarin) because he’s afraid of the CCP–he did it because he’s afraid of Chinese consumers, and he knew he had offended a fuck ton of them. The Chinese are every bit as patriotic as the United States, and some people don’t realize how patriotism of that level is frankly, not all that normal in a lot of the world. And it’s a powerful and at times very dangerous force.
Also can you cite that Xi is barely holding on by his fingernails? You seem to be getting your China info from a bizarro world that no one else (including many genuine China experts) aren’t acquainted with at all.
You keep talking about China (not just in this thread but a few recent ones) like it’s the final days of the Soviet Union, unless you are literally smarter than all the other experts in the world, and hey–if you are you’ll be famous soon enough so grats to you, that is not at all the situation.
Bah…this came out a lot harsher and stupider than I intended. My stream of conscious posting just doesn’t work most times. What I meant to say here was that Americans, even during the height of the ‘Freedom Fries!’ (I always think of that stupid movie with Mel Gibson set in Scotland when I mentally play the words in my head) the US was absolutely influenced by other countries reactions to this stupid theme, especially those who weren’t ultra-nationalist types. I always thought it was stupid, and so did many I knew. It just wasn’t worth fighting people on. But after the initial fire about the French not joining us and the reaction to that, it started to change and within a fairly short time you stopped seeing that, at least where I was.
The point of all of this is that Chinese society is not a monolith. There are segments of it that are ultra-nationalistic, but I think the majority aren’t. Of those, some actually follow things in the west, some look up to the west, some despise the west, some simply want to lie flat or don’t care…I think the last category is quite a few people in any society. But at a time when so many things are seemingly going wrong for China, this would be another body blow for them. Would they be angry and fired up? Sure, some of them would. But many wouldn’t. And not all in the CCP would be pleased by this and would see this as weakness or failure in Xi and his faction.
To get back to the freedom fries example, this was in the wake of 9/11 and the rush to vengeance by the populace. Certainly that sort of nationalist rhetoric worked for Bush II…he got re-elected after all. But even before his second term you could see the cracks spreading, his support waning, even by the ultra-nationalist freedom fries types. By the end of that second term it was pretty apparent that he was not well liked even by his own party and that the next election would see a sea change from his administration. Well, what is going on today, and the effect of a theoretical boycott (that won’t happen, so we’ll never know) would, IMHO, have a similar effect at least wrt Xi and his faction…but also would be a blow to the CCP as a whole if it happened. The immediate reaction might very well be what you are saying, because, frankly, the ultra-nationalist types (as all radicals do) simply shout louder, and Xi would be playing this up to the hilt. But coupled with the other things impacting China today, I think it would be a lot more serious than you seem to think…if nothing else, it might bring Xi et al down. And give us another set of monsters to fret about and discuss, I suppose.
I don’t support boycotting. Unless it is led by the athletes and not them being made pawns in international affairs. Those men and women worked their lives dreaming and aspiring to go to the Olympics and to have it taken away from them is cruel.
And you win the award for ironic username post.
You want me to cite my opinion? 
But thank you for saying my info is from ‘bizarro world’ (sic), as that makes me feel better about being an ass to you earlier.
You do know that not all ‘experts’ agree on this stuff, right? And, sorry, but if any experts are saying that things are going swimmingly for China right now, or that Xi isn’t in trouble, or that the people don’t seem worried then I would stop listening to them. There is a lot of talk about ‘the mandate of heaven’ flying around these days, a lot of worry about economic issues, about demographics and what is going on in China. Seriously, have you been keeping up with actual events happening in China for the last, oh, say 2 years?? What experts are YOU following that they aren’t concerned by all that’s going on??
I’m not saying these are the end of days for the CCP or that we are looking at the fall of the Soviet Union. I can see some parallels however…certainly as many as I see with people making similar comparisons to the US and Rome or the British Empire. I am saying that things in China are not going well and that right now would be a very bad time for a boycott. Obviously, you and your ‘experts’ don’t agree, and I’m fine with that.
Good point.
To be clear my distinction is between athlete led vs politically ordained. The Olympics is a pinnacle of an athlete’s career. Some of the people pulled out of 1980 did make it to future games but many never got to live that dream. I don’t think that was fair.
Of course boycotting the Games wouldn’t affect China, but I’d never assume that was the purpose. You’re boycotting the Olympics, so the goal would be to influence the Olympic committees to not allow the games to be held in countries like China.
I don’t think what was done in the past is relevant. You can always change how you do things. What I do think is relevant is whether or not there is any need to send a message to the Olympic Committee not to put the games in dictatorships that commit genocide, as they aren’t doing so in the future.
As for the athletes? I can feel a bit sorry for them, but, at the same time, I can’t really get too far into needing competition to prove you are the best. They can show their talent at home. I get that sports are fun to watch, and I don’t begrudge people making a living at that. But, just like I wouldn’t get super upset about a TV show getting cancelled for someone who doesn’t really need the money, I don’t see a huge injustice in not being able to go to the Olympics. Heck, most sports still have international championships anyways. So the “fariness” to the athletes does not enter my calculations.
My main issue is just “what does the boycott accomplish?” As stated, it won’t stop China. Will it change how the IOC operates? Right now, it doesn’t seem so.
This is the post that most closely aligns with my sentiments. Unfortunately, as I’ve posted on other Olympics-related threads before, the ones with the power to make this happen are also the ones addicted to the $$$ and prestige that comes with the Olympics. So … it’s not gonna happen.
Looks at username
Would a boycott of the 1936 Olympics have accomplished anything?