Should there be a massive gun owner/supporter database?

[Human_Action]

@RTFirefly

From Czarcasm’s link:

I certainly have a consistency problem here with the NRA objecting to the Federal government building a list from the same non-NRA sources it’s used to build its own list.

I’d say the NRA should be free to do whatever it wants with the lists of persons who’ve taken its gun safety classes (use such lists for their own purposes, but keep them from the Feds), except for the part where many states mandate that firearms licensees take the NRA’s courses. To the extent that the NRA is acting as an adjunct of state or local governments, its records should have the same accessibility - to the Feds, the NRA’s political arm, etc. - that similar state and local records have.

If a license is issued, then that becomes a public record, so the only names of people taking NRA classes that the NRA has that aren’t public would be people who failed the class or never completed all the steps to have a license issued.

The notion that the NRA has a state-granted monopoly on the instruction mandated to receive a firearm, hunting, or concealed carry license in some states is far more upsetting and wrong than their compiling a list of gun owners from public or commercial sources, IMHO. I checked the Iowa Code to verify the article’s claims, and found:

724.9 Firearm training program.

1. An applicant shall demonstrate knowledge of firearm safety by any of the following means:
   a. Completion of any national rifle association handgun safety training course.
   b. Completion of any handgun safety training course available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, community college, college, private or public institution or organization, or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the national rifle association or the department of public safety or another state’s department of public safety, state police department, or similar certifying body.
   c. Completion of any handgun safety training course offered for security guards,
   investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of a law enforcement or security enforcement agency approved by the department of public safety.
   d. Completion of small arms training while serving with the armed forces of the United
   States as evidenced by any of the following:

Bolding mine. There is that bit about a “similar certifying body”, but the blatant gift of instruction fees the Iowa legislature gave the NRA is appalling.

[Czarcasm]

@Bone

Which states do this and for what purpose? I think this statement is a bit vague with the term “firearms licensees”. Can you clarify?

I’ll try to get the whole list, but from the article there is this:

Complementing this practice is the mining of data on the thousands who take gun safety classes from NRA-certified instructors. Arulanandam said there are 97,000 of them, a figure that impressed Quinn as a larger “army of organizers” than Obama had.
In some states, those ranks are propelled by laws that specify that taking classes from NRA-certified instructors in order to obtain permits or licenses. In 2011, for instance, the Iowa Legislature added such a provision.
“Previously there was no reference to the National Rifle Association in the Iowa code,” Loder said. “Before, it would have been a course offered by the local sheriff’s office.”

[Crotalus]

@Bone

Which states do this and for what purpose? I think this statement is a bit vague with the term “firearms licensees”. Can you clarify?

My state, Ohio, requires that one take a concealed-carry class before applying for a concealed-carry permit. The classes are mostly or entirely put on by NRA-trained and approved instructors.

[Mangetout]

@Czarcasm

The people supporting this say that it won’t cost the taxpayers any money because the information will be gathered by a private company.

1. Create and maintain a massive database
2. ???
3. Profit!

Why would a private company be interested in the above business model? Who is claiming that this will just be mopped up by a private company?

[Crotalus]

@Mangetout

1. Create and maintain a massive database
2. ???
3. Profit!

Why would a private company be interested in the above business model? Who is claiming that this will just be mopped up by a private company?

Number 2 is solicit donations.

[Czarcasm]

@Mangetout

1. Create and maintain a massive database
2. ???
3. Profit!

Why would a private company be interested in the above business model? Who is claiming that this will just be mopped up by a private company?

See post #13,

[Human_Action]

Kentucky’s system, while still NRA-biased, is much less of a political gift. To be an instructor here, the requirements are:

(3) An applicant to be a firearms instructor shall hold a concealed deadly weapon license issued pursuant to KRS 237.110, and successfully complete a firearms instructor training course of not more than sixteen (16) hours provided by a certified firearms instructor trainer.

To become a trainer who can conduct that sixteen-hour class for potential instructors:

(2) A firearms instructor trainer shall meet the requirements to be a firearms instructor and shall:
(a) Possess a high school diploma or GED certificate;
(b) Successfully complete a firearms instructor trainer course of not more than sixteen (16) hours provided by the department; and
(c) Possess at least one (1) of the following valid firearms instructor certifications:

1. National Rifle Association Personal Protection Instructor;
2. National Rifle Association Pistol Marksmanship Instructor;
3. Certification from a Kentucky or other firearms instructor course
   offered by a state or federal governmental agency; or
4. Certification from another firearms instructor training course that has been determined by the Commissioner of the Department of Criminal Justice Training to be equivalent to one (1) of the above listed courses.

Depending on how many non-NRA courses have actually been determined to be equivalent to the NRA or government courses, that may or may not be an effective monopoly for the NRA. Even so, better to have a monopoly on instructor trainers than instructors.

[Bricker]

@Czarcasm

If they could do it, or made a massive attempt to do it, would you object to it?

I would not. As long as it’s a private company, and not the government, at work, by all means, let them develop whatever sort of database they wish.

[Bone]

The NRA has certified instructors which are recognized as sufficient to obtain CCW licenses in several states, yes. The NRA is one option - not the only option.

The claim that NRA courses are mandated is unfounded.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Human_Action

What, exactly, would such a database be useful for? Given that it would cost taxpayer money to create and maintain it, there would have be some benefit that can be articulated, or it should be opposed simply for being wasteful.

Aren’t people who commit a felony prohibited from owning a firearm? Aren’t people with mental illness prohibited from owning a firearm?

[Human_Action]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Aren’t people who commit a felony prohibited from owning a firearm? Aren’t people with mental illness prohibited from owning a firearm?

Yes, and yes. Thus, a list of felons and the mentally ill would be useful, as it could be checked when a firearm is transferred.

What is the benefit of a database of all firearm owners, or firearm supporters, however one defines that?

[aNewLeaf]

Isn’t that already true without a national database?

[HurricaneDitka]

@Czarcasm

If they could do it, or made a massive attempt to do it, would you object to it?

While I believe they’re free to attempt to do so, I wouldn’t support / aid their efforts, and I’d probably write them a mean-spirited email or two.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Human_Action

Yes, and yes. Thus, a list of felons and the mentally ill would be useful, as it could be checked when a firearm is transferred.

What is the benefit of a database of all firearm owners, or firearm supporters, however one defines that?

I said owning, not transferring.

So, imagine Joe Smith has just been convicted of a felony, and Jane Ziegler has just been released from involuntary commitment for mental health treatment.

Now what?

[jasg]

I think that the process of obtaining a gun license should be the same as obtaining a voter ID card. Money could be saved by issuing them at the same time from the same office.

[Human_Action]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I said owning, not transferring.

So, imagine Joe Smith has just been convicted of a felony, and Jane Ziegler has just been released from involuntary commitment for mental health treatment.

Now what?

Now…they’ve been convicted and released, respectively. You tell me how a database of firearm owners/gun safety class graduates/gun show attendees factors in.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Human_Action

Now…they’ve been convicted and released, respectively. You tell me how a database of firearm owners/gun safety class graduates/gun show attendees factors in.

I don’t care about gun show attendance or safety classes in this matter.

But you agree that they should no longer own firearms, right?

How do you know if they own firearms or not?

[tomndebb]

@Czarcasm

There are those that say that such a database could be useful, . . .

I would be interested in seeing any evidence that there is any real support (aside from a ridiculously minuscule number of anti-gun zealots) for the idea that collecting personal information on gun owners and gun supporters has any value.

[SirGalahad]

In my opinion, the government already has that national database … it’s a work in progress. The only debate I’m interested in is: should it be accessible to the public?

[Czarcasm]

@tomndebb

I would be interested in seeing any evidence that there is any real support (aside from a ridiculously minuscule number of anti-gun zealots) for the idea that collecting personal information on gun owners and gun supporters has any value.

I believe I gave a link about the group that thinks gathering this data has real value in post #13.