Should universities focus more on programs that lead to specific career goals?

[wolfpup]

@Dangerosa

How the world should be is a nice discussion, but we also have to talk about how the world IS.

I don’t want to go too far down this particular sidetrack, but FTR, I am talking about how the world is. This is in distinct contrast with how the US isn’t, due in large part to the heavily influential commercial self-interests of the hard right, which in this context has resulted in such incredibly high tuition rates and such incredibly draconian bankruptcy policies. For example:
While it is not impossible to have student loans forgiven, they are treated far less favorably than most forms of debt. In fact, student loans are treated more or less the same as debts for child support or alimony, tax claims, and criminal penalties. The normal goals of risk-sharing, rehabilitation, and relief for the financially distressed—values that provide the foundation of our bankruptcy laws—are not available to individuals who borrowed money to finance their education.

… There is no sound rationale for applying such an unforgiving bankruptcy standard to federal student loans, particularly in an era where the vast majority of students must borrow in order to get a bachelor’s degree. To simultaneously require that students take on debt while making that debt extremely difficult to discharge is a particularly cruel policy trap.

No Recourse: Putting an End to Bankruptcy’s Student Loan Exception | Demos

[WillReadmore]

@wolfpup

I don’t want to go too far down this particular sidetrack, but FTR, I am talking about how the world is. This is in distinct contrast with how the US isn’t, due in large part to the heavily influential commercial self-interests of the hard right, which in this context has resulted in such incredibly high tuition rates and such incredibly draconian bankruptcy policies. For example:
While it is not impossible to have student loans forgiven, they are treated far less favorably than most forms of debt. In fact, student loans are treated more or less the same as debts for child support or alimony, tax claims, and criminal penalties. The normal goals of risk-sharing, rehabilitation, and relief for the financially distressed—values that provide the foundation of our bankruptcy laws—are not available to individuals who borrowed money to finance their education.

… There is no sound rationale for applying such an unforgiving bankruptcy standard to federal student loans, particularly in an era where the vast majority of students must borrow in order to get a bachelor’s degree. To simultaneously require that students take on debt while making that debt extremely difficult to discharge is a particularly cruel policy trap.
No Recourse: Putting an End to Bankruptcy’s Student Loan Exception | Demos

I think it goes farther than that, too.

Other countries are recognizing that the direction of their economies (and the global economy) is headed ever more strongly toward needing 4 year degrees.

So, countries like Germany and Japan are working to make college tuition WAY less - meaning that a larger percent of their populations have this opportunity.

[Urbanredneck]

@WillReadmore

There is certainly truth to that. And, I’m not convinced that the argument in favor of education is undermined by that fact.

From the point of view of investment, that $1M average difference justifies a real investment at some level as the taxes on that $1M is substantial. We all win when kids graduate - even if you totally discount all other benefits of a more educated populace.

From the point of view of American competitiveness, we need more people prepared for a changing job market that is moving toward requiring more education. We can’t afford more workers (like in coal or manufacturing) who are left behind.

From a social safety net stand point, those with less education are more likely to need to rely on our tax dollars. More education is a protection against that.

From a social justice standpoint, we perpetuate the giant generational wealth gap in our society by making education more available to those kids from families that have income to spend on education. We need these people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. But, today education IS the boot straps.

Problem with that is that more and more people get 4 year degrees, the value of those degrees decreases.

Its like having a law degree. Yeah, years ago lawyers made great money. Then everyone went into law and we had this glut of lawyers.

So you say a college degree ends with a million dollar paycheck? Will that still be there if everyone has one? What if the person with the degree ends up working next to the person with no degree and making the same money?

[Ruken]

@Urbanredneck

[…]I’d like to ask, are you all seeing more colleges doing this?

Should universities be required to show how many of their graduates are actually getting jobs in the field and their incomes?

Will more schools drop liberal arts programs?

1. I’m not seeing this, but maybe I’m not paying attention.

2. I love data, and I love asking people to spend not-my-money on things I like. So sure!
   I’m not sure how useful it will be. Especially the “in the field” part. Or maybe that will be good for demonstrating which majors are less likely to pigeonhole you. People don’t major in consulting, so count me as not “in the field”. And IIRC the top 10 degrees for physicians include english, econ, and history.

And how useful will the pay data be? The average engineering major may earn more than the average english major, but it doesn’t follow that any individual english major would have been better off if he or she had attempted majoring in engineering. People have different intelligence, interests, proclivities, drive, etc.

3. No school offers every single possible major. “UW-Stevens Point proposes shifting resources from programs where fewer students are enrolled.” If student preferences are changing, I would expect schools to change what they offer.

@Urbanredneck

Ok, they may be over 18 but are they really ready to take on a $100,000 responsibility? Thats the amount they often take out in students loans to get an education.

No, not “often”. And even less often for the $150k example you floated more recently in the thread. Yes, it is theoretically possible to incur that much debt (and more!) while pursuing an undergraduate education. It is extremely rare to do so, especially at a public school or a non-profit private school. I don’t know enough about for-profits to comment. Most new graduates have less debt than the average car loan.

[Voyager]

@Urbanredneck

Problem with that is that more and more people get 4 year degrees, the value of those degrees decreases.

Its like having a law degree. Yeah, years ago lawyers made great money. Then everyone went into law and we had this glut of lawyers.

The “glut” of lawyers came from the Great Recession, not from there being too many lawyers in general. I know this - my son-in-law graduated at just the wrong time. He is fine now thanks to the recovery.
As the joke goes, in a town with one lawyer, that lawyer is in trouble. In a town with two lawyers they both do fine.

So you say a college degree ends with a million dollar paycheck? Will that still be there if everyone has one? What if the person with the degree ends up working next to the person with no degree and making the same money?

It is not a zero-sum game. If a college education improves the productivity of a worker, the more college educated workers the more output per person, the more profit for the company, and the more jobs.
I’m sure you can find cases where people working next to each other have the same pay though one has a degree and the other doesn’t. They better have the same level of seniority and the same performance, though. On the average, however, it is not true.

[smokey78]

@Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control

I was an English major. I learnt 3 things:

1. You don’t actually read much great literature. The bulk of your reading is comprised of fatuous, nonsensical essays written by literary critics that generally aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.

2. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, on an English course that you can’t teach yourself at your local library. In fact, you’d probably enjoy yourself considerably more.

3. While an English degree is better than no degree, a mediocre computer science degree is worth ten times as much as a first class English degree.

I absolutely believe universities should focus more on majors which lead to clear career paths. If such focus had been present 20 years ago, I might not be suffering such profound buyer’s remorse today.

I have mulled about the road not taken, and deep down now I know why the push if for STEM careers. Not for innovation, but really for safety and assurance. I learned in a medical sociology class about the theme of “structural buffering.” Example: not feeling too bad you crashed your Porsche cuz…you can afford to buy a new Porsche.
I LOVE reading about Tudor History and watching documentaries and reading BBC History magazine. But there is no job out there that would pay me to do that! and pay six figures, the way it is working in pharmacy with my pharmacy degree ( I like science just don’t love it) I am tolerating my work only cuz it affords me luxury and really honestly, I can retire now and not have to worry about next paycheck. And leisurely read BBC History whenever I want to.