Okay so the immediate conversation goes like this. Hey lets decriminalize or legalize prostitution. Then someone responds with either, no cuz bible, or it’ll increase human trafficking. Now looking at the response we can actually debate (rationally), there are a few cases to be made that decriminalization could lead to a decrease in human trafficking. The reason being is with some laws in place, there is a disincentivization for victims to report crimes. By decriminalizing sex work, these people will be more willing to report whatever happen to them. With legalization you could regulate these practices and tax businesses operating as brothels. Which could further decrease conflict and crimes committed in relation to sex workers. IE a pimp slapping his ho for not giving him her money.
I think I’ve made a similar thread on this topic before, but I want to be specific, should we decriminalize, and if so should we go a step further and legalize. Here are a few articles I found on the issue.
My belief is, prohibition never works in the way people initially hoped it to work. Especially for things like this. Right now in America since popular sites like Backpages and craigslist got hit by the feds. many sex workers resorted to hitting the streets and joining businesses that essentially operate as pimps such as massage parlors, most of the time they still directly advertise themselves without a middleman, but those middlemen or pimps have certainly increased as less popular prostitution/escort sites have became relied on. And those who are desperate enough to hit the streets, are obviously putting themselves in more danger by not being able to talk to a customer first before meeting them. Sex work is a perfectly acceptable occupation, whether you think it’s immoral or not the fact remains there is a strong argument to be made in favor of decriminalizing sex work.
Full legalization is the best protection against human trafficking. Decriminalization would make human trafficking worse since legitimate businesses can’t run brothels or call girl services, so you’d just continue to have the dirtbags do it outside of government supervision. Legal businesses can be regulated. Criminals can’t.
It makes absolutely no sense that you can go to someone and pay them money to stick needles into your body, but you can’t pay them for sex. So, yeah, it should.
Especially in the modern age, where hooking up over the internet has mostly replaced streetwalkers and brothels. Of course, if you hook up for free it’s 100% legal. But if you pay for it, then it’s not. Senseless.
…you’ve done this thread before. My position on decriminalisation remains unchanged. Its legal and regulated here, the world didn’t end because of it, people in the sex industry think that they are safer now than they were before the law change.
I know and I mentioned it in the OP. I want to hear arguments for or against decriminalization or legalization. This is such a serious topic that receives little attention so I don’t mind bringing the topic it’s self up again, but the point of this thread is different from that initial one i made a while back. I kinda have evidence to support my claims now.
Criminalization provides leverage over the buyers and sellers, drives up prices, provides corrupt cops and judges with a nice cut of the action, and is just generally a handy control feature. What’s a society not to like?
IMHO what adults want to do sexually with other adults, and what if any quid quo pro may apply, is only society’s business when public nuisance (don’t block the sidewalk or frighten the horses) and safety intrude. I can see the validity of training, licensing, and screening commercial sexworkers, not unlike cosmetologists and dental techs. I can also see strict regulation to prevent exploiting the underage; some jurisdictions seeking customers may lower the age of majority. Screen and license pimps as brokers, too. Or will unlicensed violators abound?
I don’t see legalization happening anytime soon in the US. Corruption is too rewarding.
I’m all for full legalization, regulation, mandatory exams etc…
But only if those who practice it illegally (i.e. street walkers, pimps, Johns, unlicensed whores, etc) get hammered to the wall. No more pay a fine and walk. Make legal prostitution acceptable and illegal prostitution extremely unattractive to practice or patronize.
…“unlicensed whores?” Seriously? Aren’t you in law enforcement? Is that the way you normally talk about sex workers?
Street walking is legal here in New Zealand. Why should it be illegal, and if it were to be illegal why would the penalty be anything more than a fine?
We don’t have mandatory exams here in New Zealand. Why do you need mandatory exams in the United States, and if you are going to have mandatory exams for sex workers would you also require mandatory exams for food workers as well?
Is it taxed? If it is, there will be an incentive to avoid the tax, which makes it illegal. So maybe the solution would be to charge underground sex work for tax evasion, not for sex work. That would get the pimps also.
How do you handle privacy? Users would want privacy, but there should be some sort of traceability in case of disease or violence against the sex worker.
I’m all for legalization, but there are still issues.
That’s tough though. Sex for money happens all the time, it only gets enforced against if you’ve got multiple customers paying in cash. If you’ve got one sugar daddy the law won’t touch you, or if you take payment in non-cash forms, like expensive dinners and hotel stays and gifts, they won’t touch you. Sex by its nature is nearly unregulatable.
…this doesn’t answer either of my questions which were specifically about street-walkers and mandatory exams, and also about if you wanted to make them illegal why would you make the penalty anything stronger than a fine?
Why would this be treated differently than any other worker? Why does there need to be any more traceability than you would need with food service workers? Would traceability decrease violence or simply push the industry underground?
The same can be said for every single currently legal industry. What industry doesn’t have “issues?”
Sex work is legal in New Zealand. Many, I would argue almost all of the issues got addressed in a way that was both positive for sex workers and their clients and for society at large. This really isn’t a big and complicated thing to figure out.
Some researchers have found a link between legalized prostitution and sex trafficing.
Some salient facts:
As an example, they discuss Germany, which legalized prostitution in 2002. The minimum estimate of sex trafficking victims in the country increased from 9,870 in 2001 to 11,080 in 2002, to 12,350 in 2003.
I do not know if this would always hold true, or if there are confounding factors. But it’s not a simple as ‘legalization means less human trafficking’
Was it really legalized in the sense that businesses could operate openly, or legalized only in the sense that the government wouldn’t interfere with transactions? The former creates a regulatable industry, the latter just makes life easy for pimps and traffickers.
That’s why I’m not a big fan of drug decrimanalization. As Yoda says, “Either do or do not”.
…that article is essentially a rework of this article here:
That article starts with the line “One of the advertised advantages of legalizing prostitution is that it should reduce illegal human trafficking.” But that isn’t really true at all. Most arguments in favour of legalized sex work is along the lines of what Human Rights Watch said here:
They do talk about trafficking, but they say this:
So its a strawman argument. And its based on research that I consider to both be flawed and out-of-date: it compared trafficking estimates between Denmark and Sweden when both countries had very different methodologies in how they reached those estimates.
A food worker can’t give someone a serious STD. Well, they can, but usually it’s not a normal workplace hazard.
YMMV in Kiwi land. But street prostitution in my city is a leading cause/indicator of more serious crimes. I’m a believer in the Broken Windows Theory. It also is what a lot of people think of here when they think of prostitution which is one reason why they oppose legalization. FYI, in the one state here where prostitution is legal, street hookers are not.
…but a food worker can give someone hepatitis A. Does that not concern you?
People fucking is a leading cause/indicator of more serious crimes? Really? A crime worthy of harsher penalties than a fine?
Sex work involves the exchange of money for sexual services. So how does the Broken Windows Theory apply here? What is it exactly about this exchange you think should be criminal? What is the problem you are trying to solve?
Well perhaps you might consider that you are part of the problem. Calling them “whores” certainly doesn’t help.
In the one state in the United States where prostitution is legal they’ve adopted a system that is both exploitive and degrading. Its a terrible implementation of legalized sex work that benefits brothel owners and isn’t anything close to what sex workers have advocated for.
Prostitution is legal in Brazil and they still manage to reward corruption.
Food workers can give people serious food related diseases like E Coli, Botulism or Hepatitis. That’s why we have health inspectors for restaurants.
Although now I have this amusing image of Amsterdam Red Light District style kiosks with New York City style “A”, “B”, etc inspection ratings in the window.
You did read my post where I said I was in favor of legalization, correct?
I deal with cw’s almost every other night. They’re doing more than just selling sex. Where they are there are far more serious crimes going on. Robbery, sexual assault, burglary, narcotics trafficking. You name it. By eliminating the small violators the vicinity looks less attractive to the more hard core criminals, and then vice versa. Street walkers are a blight on any urban landscape. You don’t have to agree with that, but it’s the way I see it. And those street walkers are routinely far more used, abused, raped, battered, and assaulted than the professionals working in Nevada. Get rid of the street slags and implement a Regulated sex worker profession and I’m all for legalizing it.
…I read the post where you called them “whores”, I most certainly did that.
If they are doing the serious crime then arrest them for the serious crime.
You aren’t eliminating the small violators. You are simply targeting them. You state you deal with them every other night. The elimination strategy is going very poorly.
“Whores.” “Street Slags.” “Blight.”
These are human beings you are talking about. These aren’t crimes of the century. You describe them as “small violators”. Do you really think small violators deserve such dehumanizing labels?
Oh silly me. Of course you think they deserve those labels. That’s why you doubled down from “whores” to “street slags.” I can’t wait to see what you call them next. Actually, I can wait, and would prefer that you didn’t, if you could please.