Should We Give Our Children Ridelin?

Great Debates
101

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How many kids in the class? What grade? What are the “standardized” tests—IQ, general knowledge, various subjects?

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That’s pretty good. At least you started off well anyway. I in fact do harbor emotional antagonism towards feeding drugs to children, whether it be out of irresponsibility or out of a debased effort to make a buck (or a few billion bucks). From there the discussion will go nowhere near any conspiracy theory if I can help it. Scum wanting to make a living from drugging children is not conspiratorial, it’s right there for you to see it. It is corrupt and contemptible, but not conspiratorial. As for parents letting this stuff be prescribed to their children, I assign irresponsibility. There sure is no conspiracy there. I know that will draw all sorts of venom because parents get super-defensive on this one—and so they damn well should. Any parent getting defensive on it should stop to consider whether they would be so offended if there were not an element of truth in what I say. If you want to drug yourself to make yourself feel better, well okay. But drugging children is one of the most deplorable acts that I have seen in this culture and I think you should be ashamed of yourselves—as your hyper-defensiveness indicates that you are.

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Is this a joke? Take a deep breath, calm yourself, and read again what you wrote in this very post, let alone any others. If you still maintain that you have made no ad hominem attacks, I suggest looking the term up in a dictionary. If still no realizations, just get yourself some Ritalin—in this case it may just do some good.

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Yep. All the kids I’ve read about that have done so never came anywhere neat ADHD type symptoms.

How does the behavior of a bored child differ from an ADHD child?

Can you provide a cite as to the fact that ADD was around long before there was any drug to treat it?

What external structures are imposed in your experience?

What desired behavior is re-enforced?

What diet is maintained?

What other controls?

These are serious questions. I am not contesting any points—just trying to clarify what you are referring to.

102

Wow. Pretty inflamatory. So now pharmaceuticals are corrupt, contempable, and scum? And the “fact” that psychologists and psychiatrists made up a fake disorder so that pharms could make a profit? Yeah, that’s pretty much a conspiracy.

I think one place you’re getting hung up is on the word “drug.” Over the past 20 years we’ve heard some strong rhetoric against drugs. Just Say No and all that crap. What got lost in that is the fact that some drugs are not recreational, and some are, in fact, beneficial.

My girlfriend’s elderly mother has to take cumidin and ACE inhibitors to keep from dying. Is she a drug addict? Is she some irresponsible hippy freak trying to cop a cheap high? What about those evil scum pharms that peddle this stuff to her? Just in it for profit, you know.

How about children with diabetes? Evil scum pharms making huge profits pushing insulin to kids, drugging them up when the kids should just learn to cope like everyone else?

103

All the kids you’ve read about, huh. Can you offer some links to articles about this? Articles at a reliable source? Or is this just a vague reference back to something you read on some site selling this reading program?

Oh, God, yes. I dream of this. I personally would love a simpler and more effective way of dealing with ADHD than all this medication and therapy. Maybe someday there’ll be one. But for now, it would be a bad idea for me to go off my medication that gives me a chance of being a functioning member of society. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like the idea of making my parents take care of me well into adulthood because taking medication somehow harms my human dignity. I mean, that’s hardly dignified either, is it?

Do you believe that parents should not give their suicidal adolescent an anti-depressant because that would diminish the child’s humanity somehow?

I also notice you still haven’t answered some pertinent questions asked by other posters. To help you keep track of them, I’ll repeat a sample of them here for you.

TeleTronOne asked:

Hentor the Barbarian wants to know:

And finally, tdn wonders:

104

#1 What kind of chowder do you like?

#2 Is there a particular song you prefer to march to?

105

As a New Englander, I must ask – is there more than one kind?

106

I might as well weigh in on this one.

No. What I would admit to was that ritalin was the best we had at the time, but it’s a good thing we found something better. As in most of medicine, we do the best we can. With time and research, better solutions usually reveal themselves. But currently using the best tool we have available to us at this time is not erroneous.

107

Oh, and on the IAHP website:

I believe this is incorrect, but even they are saying that ADD is a physical problem of the brain, and not a result of irresponsible parenting.

108

As I thought. You have an emotiuon-based reaction without any actual notion of what you are discussing (other than a chance to promote the IAHP agenda, despite the fact that there is no evidence that it actually works).

Then you want to stack up a few anecdotes that you found in print (probably on the IAHP website) against all the evidence that has been presented, here, with, apparently, no actual experience of the subject, yourself.

Second first. The earliest mention of the symptoms that have later been identified as ADHD were presented by Dr. George Still in 1902.
Lancet, i, 1902;1008-1012, 10077-182, 1163-1148
“Some abnormal psychical conditions in children.” Still, GF

The first use of an amphetamine (Benzadrine) did not occur until 1937.
American Journal of Psychiatry 1937;94:577-585
“The behavior of children receiving Benzedrine.” Bradley, C

In 1940, separate from Bradley’s work with Benzadrine, Researchers reported effects similar to those in brain-damaged children in children who had no history of or evidence of actual physical insult:
Journal of Abnormal Social Psychology 1941;36:236-248
“Pathology of figure-background relation in the child.” Werner H, Strauss AA

Methylphenidate (Ritalin) was not released for use until 1957.

The differences betweem a bored child and one suffering ADHD?
Well the DSM-IV definition of ADHD is found on this page.

Note that to meet the criteria, a child must meet at least six of the first nine symptoms plus six of the next nine symptoms. The symptoms must be persistent for over six months and must occur in more than one setting. So a kid who is bored in school, but who perks up and has a good time out of school cannot be diagnosed as ADHD.

In addition, the symptoms must interfere with the child’s daily life.

We are not talking about a kid who interrupts another person when they get excited, but a kid who interrupts everyone–teachers, classmates, parents, siblings, and neighborhood friends, often inappropriately–to the point where the kid is constantly being told to settle down and don’t interupt by parents and teachers and is being shunned by classmates and playmates all the time. We are not talking about a kid who fidgets when some other poor reader in the class has trouble reading aloud, but a kid who is so into autostimulation–even when pursuing a task he enjoys–that he gets on the nerves of every person around him. (E.g., the child begs to watch a particular movie or play a particular game of his choosing, yet continues to wriggle about, pinch himself, pick at the furniture obsessively throughout his participation or viewing. And, again, such behavior must be pervasive and persistent throughout a period of at least six months.)
The DSM-IV notes that some of these maladaptive characteristics must have been present before age 7 (in other words, during the period before entering school). At the same time, I know no psychiatrist or psychologist who will make an ADHD diagnosis until a child is around 5, since so many of those symptoms do occur in younger children.

That is not boredom.

109

Yes it is the obsessive quality to it that is odd. All of the criteria are met by all kids some of the time but its the constancy and volume of it that is different. My daughter used to insist on hugging her kindergarten teacher. It was sort of cute I guess but she got to be aggresive about it. She would continue and continue even when told no. When the teacher finaly convinced her to back off she was hurt. Then within minutes she was back at it. We have a cat that I had well before furlikid was born. They are best of friends and sleep together. Furlicat hangs out with Furlikid all the time, but won’t go near her in the morning before medication.

110

Since I’ve not been able to devote eight hour days to answering you questions and responding to your comments, I have fallen behind and will not be able to catch up. I will post one last entry. Then you can all fuss over what I’ve said and make your snide remarks and then congratulate yourselves on having the last word.

I would like to thank you all very much for showing so much interest in what I’ve had to say. I’ve never enjoyed so much exclusive attention on a thread before. In case you all had the wrong idea, I wasn’t trying to convince any of you personally of the deplorable nature of giving mind-altering drugs to children. I knew that others would read the thread and I wanted to give them a look at the pro-drugging children argument vs. the anti-drugging children argument. And I thank for the abundant opportunities to present my view in contrast to your own.

IMHO you have all portrayed yourselves as the type of person that is far more interested in making yourself right about something as obviously contemptible as drugging children than you are about simply making things right and finding real solutions. I know that there will be plenty that read this thread who are more interested in reason and productive solutions than in being right about something, and they will see the contrast in approach to the subject and, again, I thank you for providing that illustration for those that do read the thread.

I especially thank you for attacking an organization like the Institute for the Achievement of Human Potential. To attack an organization that is devoted to teaching parents how to promote the highest human potential in their children is the most effective way to show your true colors; especially when juxtaposed with a support for the use of mind-altering drugs for children.

I also thank you for helping make my point by posting a link to a page where the American Academy of Pediatrics tries to protect their monopoly by deriding an organization (IAHP) offering real solutions to problems that they haven’t the faintest clue how to handle. That was a major bonus, even though I know you won’t see it that way.
I have no personal affiliation with IAHP other than having bought and read several of their books. In contrast, I have argued with at least one psychologist (and yes Hentor, a profession that makes money off treating and researching a pretend disorder does have a vested interest in perpetuating the myth of those disorders), several users of the drug, at least one parent who has fed the stuff to their child and, it seems, at least one doctor (who would undoubtedly never admit any wrong-doing in his/her prescription of such a drug to children in spite of any obvious logic). I would gain nothing personally if your children and patients were no longer diagnosed and treated in such a manner. I gain nothing from any interest that IAHP may receive from this thread (interest that you have helped to generate—again, thank-you). However you all must cling desperately to the justifications for the drugging of children lest you confront the despicable reality of the consequences of your actions. And, yes, in some cases your careers and bank accounts also ride on those same justifications.
In your arguments you have derided IAHP for selling books (that one was my personal favorite); taken my unrelated, incidental remarks and tried to portray them as the center of my argument; and also tried repeatedly to characterize my argument to mean that diabetes patients should be left to die. The fact that I stated outright—and even repeated—that I had no aversion to the use of medication where it was warranted, you were not discouraged from making ridiculous remarks. For the cheap seats where it is really hard to hear what I’m saying: IT DISGUSTS ME THAT YOU PROMOTE THE USE OF MIND-ALTERING DRUGS LIKE RITALIN ON CHILDREN SO THAT THEY ARE MORE MANAGEABLE. I hope I have finally made myself clear. Medications for ailments like diabetes are not even remotely related in the argument. That last ditch effort to make yourself right by repeatedly characterizing my argument to mean such is testament to your own desperation to make it seem like you have logic on your side. Thank-you again for showing your true colors.
As for my providing evidence for you that (a) mind-altering drugs only exacerbate emotional problems and (b) that the symptoms attributed to ADHD and ADD can be prevented and handled with simple methods, I hate to disappoint, but I’m not going to. I know that those participating in this debate wouldn’t be convinced by the most crystal clear evidence. That would mean that you had subjected children to drugging unnecessarily and I know you can’t confront that notion. However, I do know that enough has already been said for those reading this thread who are inclined to seek useful solutions to already be doing so—and that was my objective here. The evidence for (a) and (b) is abundant and there to find for those who want to find it. For those that don’t want to find it, I am not going to beat my head against a wall trying to shove it in your face. You won’t look at it. You are free to find where your path leads you and I am not interested in convincing you of the folly inherent in walking it.
Thank-you again for all you have contributed. It has been fun.

111

[Church Lady]
Well now, isn’t that convenient?
[/Church Lady]

112

[1] Interesting, in that you earlier claimed that the psych community was not using “real” science yet you conveniently dismiss over a dozen actual scientific studies that indicate that IAHP’s “patterning” has no discernible effect on improving children’s learning. (Studies which the IAHP simply ignores, not even attempting to refute.)

[2] It amuses me that you are so locked into your own preconceived, uninformed, purely emotional prejudice that you ignore the salient point: the medications allow the children to manage themselves better. I have no desire to “manage” my son (who is still quite able to run about and enjoy himself–and get into trouble of his own devising). It has far more to do with giving them the opportunity to live a complete life, rather than letting them be locked into the distracting confines of their brain dysfunction.

[3] I don’t care that they sell books. I expect them to recover their expenses. I simply find it ironic that you reject the psych and drug communities for making money while shilling for an outfit that is making money. Note, you claimed that we would learn all about the treatment by going to the IAHP web page, but on that page they provided no information beyond their self-praising platitudes. They do not describe the treatment; they do not provide any links to peer-reviewed studies supporting their treatments; they do not even provide a basic theory (except in the vaguest terms) regarding how they perceive the dysfunctions to occur. One can learn nothing of substance about their actual program without sending them money. The terrible psych and drug communities have to publish their results in public places that can be found free on the internet, where it can be reviewed by (and criticized by) anyone. The IAHP hides all their “information” behind a wall of pecuniary recompense.

[4] You hardly disappointed me. I have been sure from the beginning that you were ignorant of the subject and had nothing to contribute.

113

[Jerry Seinfeld]
Eh, that’s a shame.
[/Jerry Seinfeld]

114

I think you’re missing the point. DAMMIT, man, EVILDOERS are DRUGGING our CHILDREN! Your so-called facts and figures are no match for LOGIC when EVILDOERS are DRUGGING our CHILDREN! This is not only cause for GREAT CONCERN, but CAUSE for BOLDING and ALL CAPS.

115

I keep coming back to this statement. You admit you don’t know a damn thing about it. You even say you don’t know any kids with the problem, yet nothing anyone says will convince you that some cultish type treatment program that has participated in no research program since the 60s and will not give anyone any information on their program unless they send money and everyone else is wrong. All on the basis of some intuition? I think i am with tomndeb in wondering what your connection with the IAHP is. Maybe you are one of the unfortunate parents sucked into believing that it isn’t working in your home because you dont trust enough so you are pushing it here. Sort of the tinkerbell method of childcare. Or maybe you are one of the ones that makes money on it. Or prehaps you really are someone that will talk out of your hat about something you know absolutely nothing about and defend it to the death. Please don’t go into education there are enough of those.

When they figure this thing out, It will probably turn out that there is more than one brain glitch that is the cause of ADD and ADHD and the like. The IAHP seems to think the opposite is true. The idea that all brain damage of any sort, is the same thing is truely bizzare. The brain is a very comlex organ, there is no way it can have just one treatment and one glitch.
One last time cause I am done. Most of us would love to get the medication out of our lives. They are a controled substance and most of us worry about long term affects. I hope there will be better treatments that come out. Hell I would even give the IAHP thing a shot if they wanted to tell us what it was, but then again I am not good at religion so i would clearly fail.

116

How can psychologists make money off of Ritalin, when they cannot even prescribe it?

D’uh.

117

Translation: No, I can’t prove any of my claims, therefore I will declare victory anyway. :rolleyes:

118

I am stunned by how fully so many posts full of circular reasoning, begging the question, and self-righteous overemotional rhetoric are summed up by this. :smiley:

119

How are those lurking in this topic supposed to be in any way convinced by a simple-minded conspiracy argument with not one shread of supportive information? Unfortunately, while apparently presenting his argument not for those posting to the thread, but for the lurking teeming millions, lander2k2 refuses to present any supportive evidence for them, only because we here are simply so deluded that it would not influence us. Go ahead lander2k2, I’ll avert my eyes. Just do it for them!

I would say I was disappointed, but that would involve some measure of surprise. I am not surprised in the least bit. I am glad, however, that lander2k2 got off on the attention, because if this does something for him, he sure needs all the help he can get.

120

Greetings

Post-poster to this thread and now lurking from time to time over here. Let me first state that I do not believe in any conspiracy theory whatsoever and that I do not always oppose giving Ritalin to ADHD children (as can be read, at least between the lines, in my posts at page 1). I stopped posting and started lurking because of the way this thread was proceeding. I thought the OP deserved a different (better, but that’s MHO) treatment.

In my view the OP touches a difficult issue on which there can be no definitive answer yet, perhaps never. Giving medication to a child in need for something that is not so very easy to define or diagnose (6 out of 9 remains adifficult criterion) is a tough job. Findings of differences in physical makeup and therapeutic succes of Ritalin do not change this, I daresay.

The status of ADHD is a controversial issue, AFAIC, among scientists and practitioners alike. So while I think landerl2k2 claims were way to strong and often untrue, there is a big sociocultural and perhaps even moral story about ADHD to be told. But perhaps another time, another thread.

Regards