Um, the traditional theory of Christmas is that Jesus was born then. I hardly denied the existence of a traditional explanation.
I am making a claim that there is something about the dark days of winter that makes people want to light lights and throw parties. I think the confluence of holidays near the winter solstice, from quite a lot of traditions, is string support for my claim. Sure, the macabees celebrated their victory. There have been lots of local Purim-type holidays celebrated by Jews here and there. Hanukkah caught on. And got a lot of candles attached to it. (which I’ve read came later, but no, I don’t have a cite handy, and don’t plan to look for one. I got lucky on my second cite above, the Chabbad cite completely answers your complaint, and that was all i was looking for.) Why do you think that happened?
By the way, how strong is the evidence that the date of Channukah has anything to do with any particular historical date? Does anyone have a cite for that? Because I’m still dubious.
No, but you question the veracity of it. And I get that people are skeptical about miracles these days - such as the Christmas story or the oil-burned-for-eight-days aspect of Hanukkah - but the military victory and religious-cultural survival of the Jews in the face of Greek imperial repression is both mundane enough for skepticism to be unwarranted, and attested to as a historical event by sources that are more contemporary than modern history books are vis-a-vis the American Revolution.
Because the menorah was a part of Temple worship, which was suppressed by the Greeks, and which the Maccabees restored. The other part is offering of sacrifices, but as sacrificial offerings outside the Temple are forbidden, that’s not something that would be promoted as a nation-wide commemoration ritual.
Here’s what Josephus, first-century historian (a Jew who collaborated with the Romans) writes (emphasis mine):
“And on the twenty-fifth day of the month Kislev, which the Macedonians call Apellaios, they lighted the lights [phôta] that were on the menorah, and offered incense upon the altar, and laid the loaves upon the table, and offered whole burnt offerings upon the new altar.”
The Book of Maccabees is older, and says pretty much the same thing, but its author is unknown.
Yes, I do question the veracity. Not of the military victory or the religious-cultural survival of the Jews, just of the historicity of the date of the celebration.
I’m familiar with Josephus, but was wondering if there is any contemporary evidence. Josephus retold the common lore of the time, but otherwise wasn’t especially reliable. I realize that solid historical evidence from that long ago is thin, I’m just curious if it exists.
Let me be clear. I am not questioning whether the nation of Israel successfully revolted against the Alexandrian empire, nor whether Jesus of Nazareth was born. I am suggesting that the celebration of both those events has been influenced, both in date and in manner of celebration, by a human desire to fight the darkness, and to try to cheer ourselves up around the dark days of the winter solstice by lighting lights and eating rich food and getting together in festive groups.
And I suspect the reason Channukah survives as a Jewish holiday, despite having no Biblical basis, is at least partly because the celebration met those human needs. Which predate “Christmas”.
What’s with this constant reference to “eating rich foods”? We eat a largish meal on Christmas, but it’s not particularly “rich”. Usually, it’s just a turkey or a ham.
I dunno, our family Christmas dinner feast consists of pork fat fried in lard, heavy cream for beverage and butter cream pie for desert. We’ve lost a lot of family to heart problems over the years…but, always a festive time.
You don’t think “big chunk o’ meat” is a feast-type food? Okay.
:lol: even when we intentionally eat fatty foods for Channukah, they aren’t quite that rich. I doubt an occasional feast causes many heart problems, though. I think that’s the sort of thing that builds up slowly, based on your genes and regular diet.
No pearl onions in a cream sauce?
Root vegetables mashed (or then baked and served) with butter?
No scalloped potatoes, potatoes au gratin?
Not even vegetables like corn and peas served with butter?
What about desserts?
No ice cream or whipped cream for the fruit pies?
No creamy pies or custards or puddings?
I am so sorry.
ETA:
But at least you stuff the turkey, right? Stuff it with bread cubes or rice and nice crunchy vegetables and baste the turkey so the fat keeps the turkey moist and drains into the stuffing? Please tell me that you have that, at least you have that.
Oh, and gravy - you do have nice creamy gravy, don’t you?
Perhaps I didn’t use the best language. People feast. A feast isn’t just abundant food - 3 bags of cheetos isn’t a feast. It’s not just expensive food - a small plate of caviar isn’t a feast. It’s not just food rich in the most appealing nutrients (fat, protein, sugar), it’s some combination of the above, which I called “rich”.
OK. Feast is fine. I didn’t want to make a big deal about it, but I had just never heard of this “eating rich food” thing, and thought maybe it was a Jewish tradition that you’re projecting onto Christians.
It is, specifically, a Hanukkah tradition to eat food cooked in oil, in commemoration of the miracle of the oil lasting eight days. Fried potato pancakes and jelly donuts are popular. That probably influenced my choice of words.
FWIW, here’s what the History Channel’s website has to say, it appears to re-affirm the pre-christian origins of the December Holiday Season, but what do they know?
Indeed, there were winter or solstice celebrations prior to Christmas. And Christmas took on trapping of other, “pagan” tradition as it grew. No doubt.
But the date of Christ’s birth had* nothing whatsoever to do with those days. *
It was set as a afterthought, after they had the date for the Annunciation. Christians made a point of not celebrating Birthdays at one time. Later is became one of many minor feats days.
Centuries after the last Pagan celebration of Saturnalia had ended, Christmas began to pick up steam, as it was a big day for Charlemagne.
as far as Yule: Yule dates no earlier than the 4th century, and we know nothing about how it was celebrated until the Saga of Hákon the Good (920–961) In Fact Hakon the Good moved Yule so that it fell on Dec 25th.
Much like Hanukkah, the date was fixed early on, but the holiday began to absorb trappings and become a bigger deal. No one doubts that things like the Yule Log, mistletoe, holly, etc were all originally folk or pagan trappings, which got added to Christmas.
Warning about that History Channels site- loud annoying ad music etc, will load and play.
