Should We Run a "Virtual" Mars Mission?

Before we send a crew to Mars, shouldn’t we hold a “dry run” in Earth orbit? A complete emulation, a complete practice run…but right here, where the crew can be rescued if something goes wrong. Not even as daring as Apollo 8 or 10.

But would the funding ever be approved? Would anyone want to be part of the crew, to spend a year and a half in orbit (people have done that!) on a “dummy” Mars mission?

I think it’s a good idea. But it isn’t “sexy.” It isn’t headline news, but a $300 answer on Jeopardy. “Who are those guys in orbit pretending they’re going to Mars?”

So, should we do a dry run, or just heck with it, balls out, go to Mars and hope nothing bad happens? If you were NASA’s director, which would you push for?

as far as I know they are trying a dry run in stages in a classified location in the south west sand dunes sort of like they did for the moon landings (like a camping trip with gear and such) but I don’t think that accounts for take offs and landings in orbit tho

What aspect of a Mars mission would that test? If you don’t actually go to Mars, you can’t test your spacecraft’s ability to change orbits, withstand the radiation environment outside the earth’s magnetic field, descend through Mars’ atmosphere, land, take off again, etc.

If it’s just the psychological aspect of being isolated for a couple of years, that can be done on earth. If you want to test how the human body responds to a year and a half of microgravity, that’s been done on the ISS already.

I do like the idea of dry runs on earth, but I think a test of the system in orbit would also be valuable. Maybe run the engine for some jaunts around the moon, do some other practice runs.

I thought the biosphere experiments were brilliant in concept – although they were kinda flubbed in practice.

You test the first paragraph with an autonomous spacecraft. (yes, complete with refueling on the surface and taking off again - lots of robotics)

You might even do this several times to get an idea of how reliable your solution is. (ideally a hundred+ times but no space program has an unlimited budget)

We’ve tested micro-gravity, but not 1/3 gravity. Also, a Mars mission ends up being around 3 years, 18 months of micro-gravity, longer than any astronaut has stayed on the ISS.

As you can tell from this sketch, even 2017 technology is not really enough to do a Mars mission reliably and reasonably safely. What we need are far more intelligent and reliable robotics that are easier to set up. This would help both in sending a robotic ISRU plant to produce fuel for the return journey, and in producing the many heavy lift rockets needed for the mission reliably enough that they don’t fail.

I like this a lot! Makes the eventual crewed run a lot safer. It sorta steals their thunder, but it really improves the quality of the tech.

No, if we want a dry run for Mars, let’s set up a base on the moon, and spend a few years learning what living on another world is like there, only 3-4 days from Earth. Far less expensive, far less dangerous.

The apparent “been there, done that” attitude towards the moon that seems to be behind the push for Mars has always struck me as nuts. Like someone who has just driven up Mt. Washington saying, “Okay, I know all about mountain climbing. Next stop: Everest!”

Twelve men have spent a total of a few weeks “camping” on the moon. We don’t know how to set up a permanent base, or spend long periods of time on another world with reduced gravity. There are millions of things we don’t know about living in such circumstances. And we want our first attempt to be hundreds of millions of miles away instead of one-one thousandth that distance?!

Insanity!

That works too. We can develop better rockets, better space suits, better CO2 scrubbers, etc. We can make space our back yard, and “camp out” there, before taking really big steps.

(I’m also afraid we’ll see a big and frightened recoil, come to awful day that someone dies in space. It will energize an opposition. The only good thing that could possibly come from that is a new emphasis on robot exploration.)

I think a better method is an animal text. You send a mission to Mars with robot probes and some dogs or monkeys. The robot probes can go out and conduct real research so the mission isn’t just a test. You can monitor the health of the animals for the duration of the mission and then return everything to Earth.

If you’re able to send dog and monkeys to Mars and bring them back to Earth still alive, you can figure you’re able to do the same thing with humans. If not, well, it sucks to be a dog or a monkey.

The benefits of this test is that you get to test conditions on Mars, which you can’t test in Earth orbit; you wouldn’t be risking a human crew on a prolonged mission in orbit; and you’d get some genuine new knowledge from the robots.

It’s not a lot of weeks. The total amount of time that humans have spent on the moon adds up to just 598 hours. That’s a little under twenty-five days in total.

And that’s including all the time that was spent inside the lander. The total amount of time that was spent outside of the lander on the surface of the moon adds up to less than 155 hours.

As for how much exploring was done, here’s a map of the entire area explored by the Apollo 11 mission superimposed on a regulation baseball diamond.

Apollo 11 didn’t cover much ground. Because it didn’t have a rover. And because most of what it was intended to do was learn enough about the local surface to make the subsequent missions safer. The later missions covered much more area.

But your overall point still stands; we’ve barely scratched the surface of lunar exploration.

At the same time, we’ve been living on this planet for a heck of a lot of man-years and there are still places on dry land nobody has ever stood. Much less the far larger area under the oceans.

You all seem to be assuming there will be unlimited funding and schedule for a Mars mission. In reality there will be a lot of pressure to achieve the goal as soon as possible, as cheap as possible. “Testing” is often the first to be criticized because many politicians and the public don’t understand the importance of testing. E.g. Trump administration directed NASA to look into putting astronauts on the very first SLS rocket launch. (NASA eventually said no.)

While testing of the overall system to support a crewed Mars mission in an integrated fashion is certainly highly recommended, a crewed base on the Moon as suggested by commasense is not likely to be the best value. I could only guesstimate the costs of a Lunar outpost which would depend not only on the scale and complexity of the effort but also the transportation and logistical systems used to support and supply it from Earth which do not currently exist in any sustainable form. The entire Apollo program cost ~US$120B in FY16 dollars, and delivered only six small two person landers to the Lunar surface, three of which were J-class extended missions of three days each. Developing a system capable of indefinite duration stays would easily be an order of magnitude more expensive, so we would be looking at budgets on the order of US$1T or more.

By comparison, it is estimated a single opposition-class Mars mission (40 days surface duration) with 4-6 crew is estimated somewhere around US$300B based on the NASA Mars Design Reference Mission (DRM) 5.0. The longer conjunction-class mission (~950-1000 days surface duration) is probably in the US$500B cost range. A lower cost “Mars Direct” opposition-class mission could be performed for ~US$200B by eliminating some of the subsystem level testing and performing “all-up” testing, as well as eliminating some testing entirely and relying on simulations, and accepting a much larger threshold of risk (~80% probability of mission success versus >95%). Bear in mind the current NASA budget for crewed space is ~US$8.5B, covering Orion and SLS development, ISS operations, and commercial crewed space development, and ground segment and training support, out of a total projected budget of ~US$19B. A crewed Lunar or Mars program would essentially be over and above that, and even if the ISS support and supply were eliminated (~US$3B) the budget would have to be increased by an average of US$20B for an opposition-class mission or US$33B for a conjunction-class mission in 2033 over the 2018 to 2033 timeframe. (Costs are not actually evenly distributed and it would likely peak at three times that number somewhere in the mid-2020s to support a 2033 launch opportunity.) And these costs should be considered base estimates, not accounting for unexpected problems requiring additional developments.

The NASA budget, of course, is discretionary funding and without some critical rationale based upon national security or prestige will never see this level of funding sustained over that duration. Nor would it be sensible to do so for a program that would provide only very modest scientific and national prestige benefits, with the caveat that it would provide support for high paying technical jobs in STEM fields without contributing materially to military development.

The other issue with a Lunar base is that while it would provide some valuable experience and physiology data operating in fractional gravity, it is unlikely that we could rescue astronauts in time from a critical failure of support, power, or environment systems without adding extraordinary costs, and there are unique challenges of operating on Mars that are not presented by the Lunar environment (dust storms, perchlorate contamination) and vice versa (the Moon’s highly electrostatically charged dust environment), and does not address the largest single known technical challenge of a crewed mission to Mars, which is the entry, descent, and landing environment of a >40T vehicle. And there is relatively little other value on maintaining a Lunar outpost, which would lock us into a single site. While there is still some scientific utility in Lunar missions as the Moon is essentially formed of the same materials as the Earth but without the dynamic volcanism which regularly reshapes the Earth’s surface and hides the deep mantle and core beneath us, there is very little expectation that it would provide much commercially valuable materials that could not be more readily extracted from small Near Earth Objects (NEO).

As for the proposal of the o.p., it is already essentially executed in the ISS, save that the platform receives regular supply and the astronauts serve tours of typically only ~6 months. And what we’ve discovered from ISS missions is that systems which have been tested for high operational reliability on the ground experience unique problems and failures in freefall, and that there are special hazards and challenges to human physiology, not only in adapting to the still-somewhat protected solar radiation by the Earth’s magnetosphere, the deeply penetrating high energy cosmic radiation and the weightless environment, but also by more mundane problems such as hygiene and rest.

And this gets into larger issue of crewed space exploration; that regardless of how much money we spend and how simple or elaborate our plans may be, our current state of technology is not adequate for safely conveying human beings for the required durations to travel to Mars or other planets. The complaint about robotic missions (often termed uncrewed but should really be regarded as “remotely crewed” since each rover is under direction of a large crew of operators and services many science and exploration objectives simultaneously) is that the are so small and travel so slowly; however, this isn’t because they are robotic but because of the limits of the technology propelling them (in particular, the power that is available), and adding the necessary provisions to support and protect crewed operators on the surface would increase the power requirements by orders of magnitude, notwithstanding the costs to return the crew to Earth at end of mission instead of leaving robotic probes and rovers in place and continuing to operate them long pass the mission lifespan. A crewed opposition-class mission to a single site on Mars would cost as much as a hundred Curiosity-type rovers (likely more with economies of scale) or dozens of outer planet exploration missions, which would give us vastly more scientific value and the opportunity to understand more about planetary and interplanetary environments without the consequences of failure of a single multi-hundred billion dollar mission.

This isn’t to say that people don’t have a place in space, but people require enormous resources to protect and sustain them, and at our current state of the art all of those resources have to be shipped up from Earth at tens of thousands of dollars per kilogram. The sine quo non of a sustainable human presence in space is that it be self-supporting using primarily space-based resources (in-situ material utilization, or ISMU), which will require developments in energy, propulsion, and material extraction and processing technology, as well habitat and space physiology to counteract the deleterious effects of the extraplanetary environment. All of this will require remote and automated capabilities to built up and extract these resources in preparation for a human presence. As scr4 notes, whatever funding would be provided for a destination-orieinted crewed Mars mission in the foreseeable timeline would be applied to most rapidly achieving the mission objectives rather than development of a larger infrastructure for regular missions or an indefinite human presence in space.In short, if you want a permanent human presence on the Moon, Mars, or elsewhere off-Earth, you should be in strong support of remote and autonomous missions and efforts to develop ISMU technology.

Stranger

Testing on the moon and even under the ocean long term. Though some living habitat under the waves with possible scuba excursions is far from a martian environment, it is learning how to operate in an unfamiliar environment, with perhaps similar stressors.

That’s what I’m afraid of… But is there hope? How much improvement would it take for us to do the job safely? Are there “magic” technological jumps that would change the game radically?

(e.g., if we had a new propulsion system that gave a sustained .1G thrust with reasonable fuel consumption – okay, nuclear engines? – so we could get there and back in a much shorter period of time – do we have a go? Or are there too many other shortfalls and bottlenecks?)

Personally, I’m in favor of as much of both as we can possibly get! The various Mars rovers have been spectacular, and the Hubble’s (and successors’) images are beyond wonderful. The fact that we’re able to measure rotation rates of planets orbiting other stars is staggering: that wasn’t even a daydream 20 years ago!

(I also want to continue building super-colliders, explore Artificial Intelligence, and do a lot more in the way of fusion research! Science, yay!)

How I interpreted commasense’ suggestion was that it wouldn’t involve resupply - that if a Mars mission would take M months to get to Mars and back, including time on the surface, we’d use a moon base as a test by sending up M months’ worth of air, water, food, etc. with the astronauts who would occupy the base for M months.

The main question it would answer would be, can we keep a team of astronauts alive in space without any resupply for long enough to get them to Mars and back. But my thought is that we can probably test this sufficiently on Earth with an undersea base or some such thing, which I assume would be orders of magnitude less costly than a Moon base.

I say “hell no” on the suggestion to send dogs and or monkeys.

I don’t get the reason for sending anyone to Mars. The chance for saying we were there first is probably as big a motivator as any. I wish they would focus more on the moon so that some day soon it could be possible for civilians to book a flight on a moon fly by. How awesome would that be!

I’ll have you know that my simulated Mars shots in Epcot’s Mission: Space have been successful every single time.

I don’t think I ever got any Kerbals out of close orbit, though. Need to go back to that someday…

IIRC, the one at Disneyland involved a hyperspace jump. Very nice technology, if we can perfect it.

(Otherwise, welcome to Land of the Giants…)

Do you want giants? Because that’s how you get them.