Hence “appraise” and “going to be”. I’m assuming the grandma in Rodgers01’s story was employing a wive’s tale style trick of determining the baby’s future complexion such as looking at the tint of her ears rather than just waddling up and stating what everyone else can see plainly (and no, Rodgers, I’m not sure if there’s really a similar ritual performed at birth for white babies, I’m just pointing out that white grandma’s are probably just as concerned about their grandkids’ hair color as black grandma’s are about complexion).
How? Maybe it was more serious in the old days, but these days, I don’t see how complexion preferences differ from hair color preferences. Even as a black person to whom hair and eye color mean nothing, I recognize the value placed on blonde hair and light eyes in the white community. Some people might have their varying preferences, but in general, blonde hair and light eyes are viewed as best - it seems to parallel the complexion preferences amongst blacks, with both sex (the maxims are more relevant with females) and intensity (an existing phenomenon, but ultimately, not very important).
That’s not to say that I find those preferences to be perfectly acceptable - I don’t at all - I’m just pointing out that they’re not some crazy, incomprehensible black thing.
Well, by referencing the “old days”, you are at least partially acknowledging that history plays a role in the difference. On the surface, blonde hair hype bears similarity to black folk’s love affair with Euro features. It’s not until you factor in history that see that these two things originated from different places and therefore, are two different things.
Historically, light skin and wavy hair weren’t just treated as aesthetic traits among black people; they also came with status and power. The closer you looked to white, the more you were envied in the community. If you were able to pass the “brown paper bag” test you were granted access into a special world of black privilege that darker people could not enter. This all can be traced to the “house negro vs field hand” dynamic from slavery, where those of a certain appearance were afforded privilege denied to those lacking that appearance. Having Euro features meant you were more visibly related to the white establishment, and thus more likely to have access to some of the power held by the white establishment. The beauty aesthetic of light skin and wavy hair was uplifted with the concomitant stigmatization of stereotypical black features. For example, all derisive caricatures of black folks (e.g. Mammy) have stereotypical black features. None have light skin or wavy hair. Isn’t that saying something right there?
This craziness is still with us today, just not at the same intensity. It diminishes with each generation, but it hasn’t gone away.
The hype of blonde hair doesn’t have that kind of history behind it. As far as I know, blondes never created clubs and schools that practiced the equivalence of a “brown paper bag” test. Brown hair was never stigmatized like blonde hair. Brunettes and blondes do not have an analogous “house negro vs field hand” relationship. The love of blonde hair is more rooted in the pursuit of beauty, and less in the pursuit of whiteness, per se.
Although you could argue that within some more swarthy white ethnicities (like Italians), blondeness is sought after much in the same way that light skin is sought after by some black people, I’d still argue that it’s a little different. Being a brunette white person was never the burden that being a dark-skinned, kinky-haired black person was. Thus, the pressures are not the same.
What? I have never seen this in Italian families. If anything, I have seen a slight preference for a “True Italian Beauty”. Olive Skin, Long Dark Haired and Curvy.
Could you tell me where you got this blonde thing from? It is new to me.
It’s like I always say" Get in where you fit in". I’m Filipino, Mexican. and German. and I’ve always been taken for a Latina. I do speak some Spanish(enough to carry on a conversation with). My mom is white but she has a brown heart. I was raised in the barrio and I’m proud of all my ethnicity. We had a family reunion about 5 yrs ago. and I found out my paternal grandmother was half Creole. If that’s not mixed I don’t know what is. Hopefully, one day , everyone will be of mixed race. Thanks for letting me share.
As **jrfranchi **asks, where do y’all get this “blondeness is sought after” idea? Maybe blondes come in and out of fashion as adults, but I know of no one who hopes their baby is blonde out of anything other than personal preference.
The “guess the baby’s eventual hair/eye color” thing is the fascination with prediction, not because there’s a cultural preference for one or the other. There’s also the same element of “like Aunt Judy’s hair” or “bald like Uncle Chris” which is all very lighthearted. I don’t think the same is true of Black skin tones. Grandma seriously knows her grandbaby will have advantages in life by passing the “brown-paper bag” test, and is anxiously hoping for a grandchild with light skin.
Unless, pizzabrat, you’re trying to say that there is no inter-race racism in preference of light skin and Caucasion features. Are you? Because there’s lots of sociological, anthropologic and political studies that say otherwise.
From the first page of a Google search returning 1,810,000 hits on racism black light-skinned:
In Hawaii, if you’re half Asian/half white, you’re referred to as “Hapa Haole”, so the emphasis is more on the white (haole) than Asian.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard hapa-Japanese, or even hapa if half-Japanese, half-Filipino or something. It’s always Half-white.
As an aside, one of my Filipino cousins talks without an accent or pidgin dialect, and he’s accused of being a “coconut”, brown on the outside, white on the inside. Another cousin dresses, talks, and acts totally hip-hop (he even has cornrows). I wonder what the term is for brown on the outside, black on the inside? I proposed “truffle”, like the candy?
This is true in a lot of cultures. Filipinos, Hawaiians, Tongans, and Mexicans I’ve met put a premium on fairer skin. They do comment on wives and children having fairer skin. I thought it was interesting, especially since so many haoles come to Hawaii to get tans
Most of the cosmetics and soaps in the Philippines are geared toward skin-whitening. The actresses and models are white than I am.
Blondeness, regardless of age, seems to be a trait that is held in high esteem in mainstream (white) society. When I say “sought after”, I’m not saying that white people go out of their way to have tow-headed kids (most black people don’t go out of their way to have light-skinned kids, either). It’s just that more fuss seems to be made over blondes than brunettes.
You specifically mentioned Italians in your post, now you are changing your story.
I think you are ascribing a phenomenon you have observed locally to a wider area. I have not witnessed such preferences. Perhaps you are being unduly influenced by Hollywood and advertisers. Can you cite anything you are saying or could you retract your statement to the degree that you have observed such behavior? I am doubtful you have observed many Italian families with this attitude but I am prepared to be corrected myself.
This has not been my experience, and I’m as white as white gets.
Certainly, blonde women seem to be popular at some times. Lately, brunettes seem more popular, and five years ago red-heads were all the rage. There are more shades of brown and red hair dye out there than blonde, for instance. But I’ve never seen these transitory fashion preferences transferred to infants.
I would expect, if it were truly on the same level of magnitude as the Black colorist preference for light skin, that there would be some interesting studies or articles written about it, but I’ve never seen them.
How am I changing my story, jrfranchi? Do you really believe that non-Anglo Saxon white immigants (Italians included) didn’t feel pressure to achieve the blonde-hair blue-eyed American dream, and that some of this pressure is still with us today? It only makes sense that this would be the case, seeing for a long time Italians weren’t even considered white.
Some quick googling turned up this article about early to mid 20th century protrayal of the American dream through toys.
Why are you treating my remarks as if I were talking about most Italians? This is what I said:
I never even put forth that Italians are especially fervent in their love of blondness; I only acknowledged that there might be a passing relationship between blacks’ interest in light skin and ethnic whites’ interest in blonde hair, particularly as it relates to history. If I’m wrong about Italians in particular, then I’m wrong, but I sincerely doubt Italians would be immune from the pressures of assimilation that most immigrants groups faced when they entered this country. And yes, the blonde ideal was a part of this pressure.
Erm… just my two cents, but I know a handful of blonde girls (we have our share) who have been to Italy and all of them (seriously, every one) have horror stories of Italian men stalking them and generally behaving like madmen because of their blonde hair. I had difficulties believing this at first (italy must have a few blondes, no?) but when the stories just kept coming, I couldn’t help believing them. I’ve never been to Italy and am never going there so, as far as I know, Italian men behave like this around all women, in their defence. I’m just mentioning this because you seem so shocked to hear that someone would think Italians like blondes better, while it’s something I’ve been hearing for years.
I have never heard this about any other country than Italy; Icelanders’ holiday places of choice are mostly Spain and Portugal so it’s strange that I haven’t heard similar stories from those places as well.
Well at least you’re drawing on personnel experience. It sounds like you with the face just made it up.
Of course the fact there is a large number of Blonde Italian in the North makes me question it a little and the fact that Germans like to vacation at Italian Coastal Towns. I thought Germans had a larger percent of Blondes than Americans.
Of course I thought we were also talking about Italian Americans. I only know 2 blondes that visited Italy and neither reported this problem.
That’s pretty much what I was thinking: blondes can hardly be such a novelty in Italy… maybe my friends just misunderstood and it wasn’t the hair. They are quite tastefully put together, after all.
Yes, I read your post and I found it offensive.
You made a statement without support and used a term many would not like.
in your post you said
Do you consider “swarthy” a content free word? It brings up many negative connotations. Words like WAP are usually tied to that phrase.
I guess you set me off with the use of the words specifically mentioning Italians and the fact that it still sounds like you just have a belief with no supporting data but you presented it as a fact, not an opinion or experience.
If you found it offensive, you should have said it offended you instead of saying that I was wrong or making things up.
And yes, initially I did make an (off-hand) statement without a cite. Of course, so did just about everyone in the thread. But interestingly enough when I followed up my statement with a cite, you seemed to ignore it.
It means dark-skinned, man . The only reason why it might have a negative connotation is because of it’s historical usage (trust me, I understand this well since my folks are more than lil’ swarthy ourselves), but I thought it was pretty obvious that my usage of the term was benign. Again, if your beef was with the term “swarthy”, be upfront about it instead of insulting my integrity.
I wasn’t being deliberately inflammatory with the word and the context of my usage really should have told you that. At any rate, sorry if it pissed you off.
You are certainly entitled to that opinion. But you really have done a piss poor job of showing why I’m so very very wrong. I mean, I’d understand your complaint better if the thrust of my main argument was that blacks and whites are alike with their fondness of light skin and blond hair; but I was actually saying they are not similar aren’t all. Jeesh.
