Shouldn't Christians praise abortion doctors?

[nate]

…or at the very least, turn a genuine blind eye towards abortion?

I was at work the other day, one of my co-workers, who is also a pastor, (who is the poster child of Trump supporter and completely lives inside the right-wing media bubble) walks up to a mutual friend and says, “You know who the most evil people alive are? Abortion doctors!”, and starts to expand on this. I admit I get some satisfaction with playing mr. ultra liberal around him to get him riled up, so I walk up, butt in and say to our friend, “You know who the best people in the world are? Abortion doctors! I mean, all dead babies go to heaven, right? And at least some that live to the Age of Reason go to hell, so I suppose the best thing to do is to kill them early?” The co-worker says, “Murder is wrong and abortion is murder.” And I say “well, that makes abortion doctors even more great. They are likely going to hell for eternity, so are clearly sacrificing their entire existence to send others, who may otherwise wind up in hell, to heaven. What could be greater than that? I mean, that’s even better that Jesus’ sacrifice. They’re braver than Jesus!” He kind of walks off in disgust and my friend rags me for getting him going.

Anyway, clearly I was joking, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes, at least from a christian perspective. I guess some christians would say the eternal soul doesn’t exist until the baby is born, and it’s God’s intention that the baby is born, so no, no one goes to heaven. But if the eternal soul doesn’t exist before birth, I don’t understand the immorality of abortion (from the Christian perspective).

[begbert2]

In mormonism it’s explicitly stated that if a kid dies before the age of eight they are automatically sent to the best possible heaven. There is no greater love than slaughtering an elementary school.

[Velocity]

I had discussed this with some fellow Christians before. Their responses were as follows:

1. Not every Christian ascribes to the belief of infant salvation; there is no consensus that abortion automatically sends the souls of the babies to Heaven. It’s not necessarily as if, say, everyone aborted goes to Heaven by default because they died young.

2. Even if abortion had such a “silver lining”, it doesn’t make abortion something to be less decried. There are plenty of evil things done in the world which one could argue have silver linings, but that doesn’t make them good.

[nate]

@Velocity

I had discussed this with some fellow Christians before. Their responses were as follows:

1. Not every Christian ascribes to the belief of infant salvation; there is no consensus that abortion automatically sends the souls of the babies to Heaven. It’s not necessarily as if, say, everyone aborted goes to Heaven by default because they died young.

Yeah, I think that’s the best way out of this paradox, but most christians don’t like the idea of those not getting a chance at salvation, for whatever reason, going to hell for eternity.

2. Even if abortion had such a “silver lining”, it doesn’t make abortion something to be less decried. There are plenty of evil things done in the world which one could argue have silver linings, but that doesn’t make them good.

And I’d say eternal happiness over eternal suffering is a little more than a “silver lining”.

[duality72]

Well, 50% of all fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus, so you could argue that God is the most successful abortion doctor out there.

[nelliebly]

You’re assuming that all Christians are opposed to abortion, which is not the case. According to Pew Research, even among evangelical Protestants, 24% do not oppose abortion.Your logic is a bit flawed, in any case. in essence, it’s the same logic Charles Manson’s followers used in committing the Tate-LaBianca murders. Murder, they said, was thus an act of love. They loved Sharon Tate so much, they stabbed her dozens of times after briefly hanging her.

Since those opposed to abortion, Christian or otherwise, claim it’s murder, what you’re really asking is whether, according to their beliefs, murderers of any stripe should be thanked and viewed as heroes. In fact, if you use the argument that death is a release to Heaven, then everyone who believes in Heaven should kill himself/herself right now. But that’s a distortion of Christian beliefs.

I believe the Christians (or Muslims or other religious denominations who believe in Heaven) who are opposed to abortion would argue that murder (again, their classification for abortion) is wrong because God, not humans, should be the determiner of when a life ends. They might further argue that life on earth serves a purpose, which is why God created it, and that unilaterally deciding when someone else’s life should end deprives them of that purpose.

If this sounds a lot like an argument against the death penalty, it’s because it is. The Catholic Church, for instance, is opposed to the death penalty. There are Catholics and other Christians who argue vociferously against abortion but who are in favor of the death penalty. I’ve had interesting discussions with people who hold that belief.

There are a lot of logical, potentially effective arguments that could be used in arguments with those Christians, Muslims, and Jews who oppose abortion. Distorting and belittling the beliefs of those people probably isn’t one of them.

[John_Mace]

@nelliebly

You’re assuming that all Christians are opposed to abortion, which is not the case. According to Pew Research, even among evangelical Protestants, 24% do not oppose abortion.Your logic is a bit flawed, in any case. in essence, it’s the same logic Charles Manson’s followers used in committing the Tate-LaBianca murders. Murder, they said, was thus an act of love. They loved Sharon Tate so much, they stabbed her dozens of times after briefly hanging her.

Since those opposed to abortion, Christian or otherwise, claim it’s murder, what you’re really asking is whether, according to their beliefs, murderers of any stripe should be thanked and viewed as heroes. In fact, if you use the argument that death is a release to Heaven, then everyone who believes in Heaven should kill himself/herself right now. But that’s a distortion of Christian beliefs.

I believe the Christians (or Muslims or other religious denominations who believe in Heaven) who are opposed to abortion would argue that murder (again, their classification for abortion) is wrong because God, not humans, should be the determiner of when a life ends. They might further argue that life on earth serves a purpose, which is why God created it, and that unilaterally deciding when someone else’s life should end deprives them of that purpose.

If this sounds a lot like an argument against the death penalty, it’s because it is. The Catholic Church, for instance, is opposed to the death penalty. There are Catholics and other Christians who argue vociferously against abortion but who are in favor of the death penalty. I’ve had interesting discussions with people who hold that belief.

There are a lot of logical, potentially effective arguments that could be used in arguments with those Christians, Muslims, and Jews who oppose abortion. Distorting and belittling the beliefs of those people probably isn’t one of them.

What an excellent post! I’m not sure I understand or agree with the part about Manson, but otherwise that’s very well thought-out and very well written. Bravo!!

[Voyager]

@nelliebly

You’re assuming that all Christians are opposed to abortion, which is not the case. According to Pew Research, even among evangelical Protestants, 24% do not oppose abortion.Your logic is a bit flawed, in any case. in essence, it’s the same logic Charles Manson’s followers used in committing the Tate-LaBianca murders. Murder, they said, was thus an act of love. They loved Sharon Tate so much, they stabbed her dozens of times after briefly hanging her.

Clearly Christians who don’t oppose choice are not the target of the OP. Nor are ones who don’t believe in heaven or hell.

Since those opposed to abortion, Christian or otherwise, claim it’s murder, what you’re really asking is whether, according to their beliefs, murderers of any stripe should be thanked and viewed as heroes. In fact, if you use the argument that death is a release to Heaven, then everyone who believes in Heaven should kill himself/herself right now. But that’s a distortion of Christian beliefs.

But older victims have sinned, and so murdering them might take them out before they had a chance to redeem themselves. Fetuses have not sinned and so can go straight to heaven. Now, I realize that Christianity states that we are all born sinful, but fetuses have not even been born yet, and so should get a clean bill of health. Unless we are conceived sinful. Which could be a problem.

I believe the Christians (or Muslims or other religious denominations who believe in Heaven) who are opposed to abortion would argue that murder (again, their classification for abortion) is wrong because God, not humans, should be the determiner of when a life ends. They might further argue that life on earth serves a purpose, which is why God created it, and that unilaterally deciding when someone else’s life should end deprives them of that purpose.

If this sounds a lot like an argument against the death penalty, it’s because it is. The Catholic Church, for instance, is opposed to the death penalty. There are Catholics and other Christians who argue vociferously against abortion but who are in favor of the death penalty. I’ve had interesting discussions with people who hold that belief.

If God truly did not want us to murder anyone, he could have made murder as difficult as holding our breath until we die - in other words impossible. It might decrease our free will a tad, but not in any significant way. Hell, not being able to flap my arms and fly decreases my free will, and I’d use that power far more than I’d ever use my power to murder someone.
And of course when the Catholic Church was much closer to the time of Jesus than we are today they had no problem at all with murdering lots of people they did not like. Protestant churches, most of them, jumped right on the bandwagon. Opposing the murder of innocents has not been something Christians through history have been very good at.

[Voyager]

@duality72

Well, 50% of all fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus, so you could argue that God is the most successful abortion doctor out there.

And lots that do implant don’t make it. Now, what is the status of these souls? Do they go to heaven - or are they conceived sinful, and go to at least the first circle of hell? If so, why aren’t these evangelicals going all out to save these poor souls, who far outnumber aborted souls.

[nate]

@nelliebly

You’re assuming that all Christians are opposed to abortion, which is not the case. According to Pew Research, even among evangelical Protestants, 24% do not oppose abortion.Your logic is a bit flawed, in any case. in essence, it’s the same logic Charles Manson’s followers used in committing the Tate-LaBianca murders. Murder, they said, was thus an act of love. They loved Sharon Tate so much, they stabbed her dozens of times after briefly hanging her.

Since those opposed to abortion, Christian or otherwise, claim it’s murder, what you’re really asking is whether, according to their beliefs, murderers of any stripe should be thanked and viewed as heroes. In fact, if you use the argument that death is a release to Heaven, then everyone who believes in Heaven should kill himself/herself right now. But that’s a distortion of Christian beliefs.

I believe the Christians (or Muslims or other religious denominations who believe in Heaven) who are opposed to abortion would argue that murder (again, their classification for abortion) is wrong because God, not humans, should be the determiner of when a life ends. They might further argue that life on earth serves a purpose, which is why God created it, and that unilaterally deciding when someone else’s life should end deprives them of that purpose.

If this sounds a lot like an argument against the death penalty, it’s because it is. The Catholic Church, for instance, is opposed to the death penalty. There are Catholics and other Christians who argue vociferously against abortion but who are in favor of the death penalty. I’ve had interesting discussions with people who hold that belief.

There are a lot of logical, potentially effective arguments that could be used in arguments with those Christians, Muslims, and Jews who oppose abortion. Distorting and belittling the beliefs of those people probably isn’t one of them.

Maybe you are missing the main point: the idea of eternity vs time on this earth. I mean, think of time it takes you to blink your eyes vs your entire life span. This gives a way to picture the difference between a typical 70 year lifetime vs an eternity, and even this is no comparison as, by definition, eternity is unbounded. So what does it matter in the long run if one lives to 70 or dies in the womb? It doesn’t. But the earlier death guarantees eternal bliss and the other leaves open the possibility of eternal suffering. The logical thing is to end life while heaven is guaranteed, right?

But murder is wrong, so how do we perform the killings? That’s where the abortion doctor becomes a hero. Sacrificing his eternity of bliss for an eternity of suffering for the good of unknown souls.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@nate

Maybe you are missing the main point: the idea of eternity vs time on this earth. I mean, think of time it takes you to blink your eyes vs your entire life span. This gives a way to picture the difference between a typical 70 year lifetime vs an eternity, and even this is no comparison as, by definition, eternity is unbounded. So what does it matter in the long run if one lives to 70 or dies in the womb? It doesn’t. But the earlier death guarantees eternal bliss and the other leaves open the possibility of eternal suffering. The logical thing is to end life while heaven is guaranteed, right?

But murder is wrong, so how do we perform the killings? That’s where the abortion doctor becomes a hero. Sacrificing his eternity of bliss for an eternity of suffering for the good of unknown souls.

Can he ask for forgiveness on his deathbed?

[nate]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

Can he ask for forgiveness on his deathbed?

Of course! I think Hitler did the same.

[SmartAlecCat]

The Christian Bible is pretty clear that life starts at first breath at which time a person is endowed with a soul. Prior to that point, there isn’t anything to go to heaven.

The Bible Tells Us When A Fetus Becomes A Living Being

[Czarcasm]

@SmartAlecCat

The Christian Bible is pretty clear that life starts at first breath at which time a person is endowed with a soul. Prior to that point, there isn’t anything to go to heaven.

The Bible Tells Us When A Fetus Becomes A Living Being - The Christian Left Blog

It is pretty clear that if you want to justify pretty much anything, you can use the Bible to do so.

[HurricaneDitka]

@begbert2

In mormonism it’s explicitly stated that if a kid dies before the age of eight they are automatically sent to the best possible heaven. There is no greater love than slaughtering an elementary school.

I’m Mormon, and the second half of your post is an appalling misstatement of our beliefs.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Czarcasm

It is pretty clear that if you want to justify pretty much anything, you can use the Bible to do so.

Anti-abortion stuff is harder, which explains why it only became an issue in the church during the 1800s. Before that life was said to begin at “Quickening”, or when fetal movements are first felt.

Then there’s Exodus 21:22
[INDENT] “If men fight with each other and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely [and the baby lives], yet there is no further injury, the one who hurt her must be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman’s husband, as much as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall require [as a penalty] life for life, 24 [d]eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. [/INDENT] So kill a fetus, pay a fine. Kill a person, get the death penalty. (Implicitly, there are limits to punishment).

This clearly implies that fetuses are not babies, and not worthy of the same level of protection. There are workarounds to this, but it’s hard to argue with the straightforward language. And Jesus didn’t say squat about abortion, nor did his disciples.

ETA: KJV:[INDENT]22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.[/INDENT]

ETA2: Totally reasonable to say that abortion is wrong, but not murder based upon the Bible. But that sort of stance is rarely expressed explicitly (though Japanese Buddhists come close in some ways IMHO).

[Little_Nemo]

The pro-lifer would argue that it’s the souls of everyone else that he’s worried about. Sure, the fetus goes to heaven but the woman who had the abortion, the doctor, the nurses, the clinic staff, and everyone else who was involved acted together to murder a child, according to the pro-lifer’s beliefs. They’re all in danger of eternal damnation if they don’t repent.

[CurtC]

@Czarcasm

It is pretty clear that if you want to justify pretty much anything, you can use the Bible to do so.

It’s the Big Book of Multiple Choice!

@HurricaneDitka

I’m Mormon, and the second half of your post is an appalling misstatement of our beliefs.

Since only the first half was a statement of Mormon beliefs, then I guess you endorse it? The second was just a logical inference from those beliefs.

[Velocity]

@CurtC

Since only the first half was a statement of Mormon beliefs, then I guess you endorse it? The second was just a logical inference from those beliefs.

If someone were to murder a billion people in a wide-reaching program of genocide, that would significantly reduce the planet’s carbon emissions and benefit the environment in many ways.
That doesn’t mean environmentalists favor doing so.

[Voyager]

@Little_Nemo

The pro-lifer would argue that it’s the souls of everyone else that he’s worried about. Sure, the fetus goes to heaven but the woman who had the abortion, the doctor, the nurses, the clinic staff, and everyone else who was involved acted together to murder a child, according to the pro-lifer’s beliefs. They’re all in danger of eternal damnation if they don’t repent.

Interesting take, but I doubt it. They’d be a lot more worried about the salvation of Trump and Roy Moore if that were true.