Depends on which course you take. Women in the Middle Ages will be quite different from a course on the rise of American Feminism from 1776 to 1923. That will be quite different from a course on Media Portrayal of Women. Which would be quite different from a course on Second Wave Feminism. Female Economic History - quite different if you are talking about the 18th century or the 20th century. Marriage and Family. Women’s Health. Reproductive Rights and History. Language and Gender - which course are you taking?
But one thing you are almost certain to learn from taking any course that is taught or co-taught under a gender studies or women’s studies umbrella is that there is more than one way of looking at the world - a view that 51% of the world’s population has that 49% can only hope to catch the shadow of. We’ve grown up and lived in your world - we learn to function in it and its the “consensus world view” for most women - even if its slightly shifted from our world view. But read this thread carefully and you may understand that there are men who don’t even understand that our world exists.
I took a swag class and I was one of the few male students in it - even more rare in that I wasn’t an athlete. I found it interesting but not particularly challenging or illuminating. It was a lot of what you’d expect.
Maybe taking a gender studies class is a paradoxical self-fulling prophecy. The guys who need it will never take it on their own. The guys who would take it on their own don’t really “need” the class to open their eyes. Now I’m not saying the class was worthless. It was very interesting. However it hardly provided the “What Women Want” effect that many here claim it would have.
On the other hand, AU, you’re being a pompous, ignorant ass as you usually are. Don’t knock it until you try it. Do you have any concept of what marriage means to mankind outside of the context of what it means to you? Do you have any concept of the inherent biological setbacks that women have in the economic model as currently established? Are you aware of the undue burden that women have to endure in order to get “equal” say in a relationship be it business, personal, or otherwise? Glass ceiling? 70 cents on the dollar? PHYSICAL BIAS which is the impetus for this entire thread? Jeepers.
And I’m no women’s rights activist either. What is this thread doing to me?
Actually, I’m trying not to. I didn’t intend to get into any discussion about gender studies courses, but some how I ended up there. Now I didn’t have a clue about what you learned in the class, so I decided to do a quick web search on it and saw that people were complaining on the feminism of the class. I didn’t have the time to be doing any formal research at that point, so maybe one of my posts was ignorant, but all I was trying to do was find out what the hell you learn in those classes. In fact, I was trying to get colander to fight my ignorance. Maybe I was exceptionally ignorant in that martial arts thread, but here I’m clearly admitting that I don’t know anything, and I’m trying to get you guys to explain this all to me. Sorry if I’m coming across as ignorant though, but I’m trying not to.
As I recall you are not white (Indian?) And you are male? And your are a teenager? And you are straight? Christian? (Not sure about that)
Do you imagine you see the world the same way as a Black Female Pagan Lesbian in her 60s?
Everyone brings their own perspectives to the world - and each individual ends up with a unique perspective based on who they are. What they’ve done. Where they grew up. A zillion little things. But a few big ones - Nationality. Class. Race. Religion. Education. Sexual Preference. Age. Gender.
Some of these are overriding enough that we end up with very similar shared experiences simply by being “American and Female” or “An African American Teen.”
And I can’t know what its like to be an African American teen in the inner city in 2012. I can, however, admit that the world view of that individual is likely to be different than mine, I can make an effort to understand it or allow it to be communicated to me, and I can respect that its a reality - maybe not for me, but for that African American teen. And maybe I do this by really listening to African American teens. Maybe I take an African American studies class. Maybe I read books. Maybe I’m just merely open to the idea the “I don’t get it.” But what I don’t do is say “there is no value for me in knowing or understanding their perspective.” That isn’t respectful.
There you go making up things that were never in what I wrote. Where did I say or imply “rape”?
You obviously believe modern humans evolved spontaneously from nothing, but actually, early humans were just wild animals, with all the genetic progamming that any animal has, and we still have that programming in our genes, whether you like it or not.
Part of that programming is that males spread their genetic material around as many females as possible, just like seals, horses, dogs etc etc.
Even when men became “civilised” the elites were able to have as many women as possible in harems. In some cultures, men can still have several wives at one time, and easily divorce their wives to be able to have new ones if they can afford to do so ( not something that is allowed to the women in those cultures ) Someone like the King of Zululand has many wives. Nowhere would they be described as “raping” these multiple women.
For the average male in a western society, it is not generally possible for one man to have multiple partners at the same time, though some men do try.
Are you saying men don’t have “an evolutionary imperative to fuck women”? If you believe that ( other than for homosexual men, and they have “an imperative to copulate with men” ) I think you are denying reality. If that were so, the human race would have died out long ago.
The only reason many men don’t go out behaving “badly” with women is that there are “laws” to prevent it, backed up by policemen and courts and jails.
Comes to it, the difference between modern humans and animals is that we can feel the urge to do something, but no act on it, while an animal will generally just do it anyway.
Doesn’t mean that we don’t have the urge though.
Go back far enough, and marriage was a way for men to “own” women. Nowadays, as far as I can tell, in the west, it seems to be a means for women to take their ex husband for as much as possible, when they no longer want him around.
Personally, if a western woman had insisted on “marriage” with me, I’d have been off.
That seems to apply to many men as well, which is why they had to define “living together” as being the same as being married.
It’s interesting that while heterosexual couples are no longer seeing marriage as essential as before, homosexual and lesbian couples actually want to get married.
Seems strange to me.
No.
The same biological imperative compels both sexes, which, as you’ll find in the wild and the tame, requires the cooperation of both parties. Few forced copulations occur, and harems, marriages, matings, and one night stands are as much social contract as they are copulation. You keep hinting that only laws prevent men from taking sex from women as they desire it, or at least I think that’s what you mean with all the scare quotes. Frankly I’m surprised any men are letting you get away with that notion here; I suspect they’re as burned out on this discussion as I am else you’d get an earful from men, too. Men aren’t upright suited, raping monkeys, and I’ll thank you for dropping this ridiculous implication.
If you were a bit more familar with your subject I think you’ll find that women have some influence over how and when men get laid as well. You keep referring to anthropology for to support your arguments, but it’s clearly not your field of study. Humans are not barely removed from their raping ancestors. Our primitive relatives are still among us to study, and even the randiest of them (bonobos) cooperate for sexual gratification. The violent act of taking sex is rare and often triggered by tremendous stress.
I’m choosing to ignore the thread you keep dangling about Western women versus Eastern women. Your bias has an odor, and it’s more than a whiff of misogyny. Some advice: I doubt you’ll achieve your harem by warming up Western women with your charm and empathy. I doubt you’ll bully any of is into submission by shaming us for having breasts, by pinning divorce on us, comparing us to the rapidly waning stereotype of the submissive Asian woman, and we ain’t giving up our pants (menswear; high-larious).
You want a subservient, obedient, modestly dressed skirt wearing concubine to make you feel like man, you won’t find her here. You’ll have to pay for and import one of those. Good luck keeping her in the kitchen, though, because the moment she catches a glimpse of equality in your “Western world” she’ll have a pants-clad leg out the door.
This thread has strayed very far from the original topic, and while productive in some regards, it has devolved into a lot of name-calling and nastiness.
I’m going to leave this open for a short while longer in case anyone’s composing some responses (that will fall into all IMHO guidelines <stern look>) and then I’m going to close it.
In the fight against ignorance, discussions of male/female perceptions and gender roles is important, interesting and necessary. But if these discussions aren’t carried out with some level of restraint, we end up with train wrecks, which as you know we do try and avoid.