[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xtisme *
**From buns3000
Is it your assertion that Iraqis do NOT want to see such images of Saddam? Do you have anything except your own moral outrage to back that up with? Because my impression from what little news I’ve seen so far is just the opposite. Just a cursory search of google turns up plenty of cites saying just that the Iraqi’s aren’t TOO unhappy about SH capture nor the pictures. Here is only one.
Great. There’s at least 3 Iraqis referred to in that cite who aren’t too outraged.
Could you provide a cite showing that the majority of Iraqi’s are A) Offended by the footage of SH getting a medical exam, or B) That Iraqi’s in general didn’t want to see ANY pictures of SH at all? Unless of course you have nothing to back that up, and its just your oppinion of course.
What do I need to back up? If you re-read my earlier post, you’ll see that I never said that a majority of Iraqis didn’t want to see the images. I would see it as arrogant that anyone in my country or yours would purport to know what “the majority of Iraqis” did or didn’t want to see re images of Saddam or generally. I certainly wouldn’t rely on Western media to tell me (as you appear to be doing), thats for sure.
What I was driving at was that I agreed with the original post - that it was hypocritical for the US to be outraged at footage of captured American soldiers during the war quoting the Geneva Convention on the rights of POWs but then gleefully parade humiliating Saddam footage within hours of his capture. Yes, Saddam was a ruthless dictator and the world will be better off without him. No, this doesn’t give the US the option not to comply with UN Conventions to which it is a party.
Anything he claims might well be false anyway, this being the Internet. You’d have no way to verify it, and the most probable use the information would be put to by many irritated posters would be attempts at denigration and ad hominem arguments to discredit Alde’s opinions, the kind of problem that seems to be growing as the ranks of the simple-minded appear to swell here. I agree that he should be taken to task for quite a few of his posts, but I also think it’s ridiculous to try put out a fire with fire.
It’s fairly obvious Alde has access to international media, and I would guess the more slanted of his views don’t come from official propaganda; rather, they are an expression of the Arab disillusionment and disappointment that I mentioned earlier, a problem that occurs at a communal, popular level more than originating from the state, and the origins of which have been debated in many a fine thread. This is not at all the same thing as love of Saddam, as some here have with typical ingenuousness failed to discern.
Is this a fair or even acceptable characterization of another poster about whom, it would seem, we know little? What do the above guesses have to do with the discussion, even if we stick to the original subject matter Aldebaran submitted??
I don’t see it as a requirement. This reminds me of the time, on another board when I tried my hand at discussing military matters, tangentially listing a number of US blunders in recent years as I discussed a related point on technology. Many posters didn’t take that too well, and challenged me with such idiocies as “well where are you from, let’s see how your dumb country does”, when of course my location, nationality, or origin had nothing to do with the argument. Bias must be demonstrated, not merely assumed based on someone’s background.
Your philosophy here appears to advocate aggravating and inflaming a poor situation rather than correcting it. Rather than take the high ground and hold one’s behaviour to the highest possible standards in ALL ways (instead of picking and choosing the rights to afford enemies, and here again it’s interesting to recall Guantanamo), you seem to suggest that propaganda-driven foreign humiliation of a MENA pseudo-hero is something Arabs need to see?
Once again I refer to the Serbia situation of a few years ago. Throwing bombs at one of the only Slavic populations that was a long-time ally of the West didn’t win popularity points with the Serb people, and if anything it made the situation worse. The bombs and bluster didn’t put an end to ethnic cleansing, they certainly didn’t dislodge Milosevic, and they in fact did quite a few favours to criminal (smuggling, sex trade, drugs) and terrorist (KLA and their repulsive ilk) interests. Ethnic cleansing is still going on in Serbia, only it’s the Serbs who have been the targets for the past several years, on their own land. Yet it was Serbs who bloodlessly overthrew Milosevic, a man supported by such a strong network of propaganda that a swath of the population was honestly shocked to learn of the atrocities committed by some Serb forces over the years. Milosevic, both under the Serbs as well as the Europeans, was afforded dignity and rights. Even though he was considered a Serb hero for a while (sort of like Saddam was considered an Arab hero) people’s eyes opened quickly enough without the need for humiliation.
I just have to highlight this bit of silliness that someone else has already addressed:
Come on, this kind of stuff is particularly bad. Yes, the broadcast of Saddam as discussed was inappropriate, but we all know Saddam eschewed a beard, generally preferring limited facial hair for as long as I can remember. Since Saddam has never sported a beard I’m guessing he doesn’t like it or finds it uncomfortable – in which case his captors actually did him a favour by shaving his disguise off! At any rate, it seems extremely unlikely that the removal of that ragged beard had anything to do with offending religious or cultural beliefs, so why not stick to the valid points?
Of course, you have probably missed the many demonstrations in Iraq which were in support of Saddam and in some of which the US forces used tear gases and even live fire (after they were fired at, of course!).
But that is completely irrelevant. An act stands on its own merits and whether all the Iraqis were for or against something makes no difference as to the morality of the act. The populations of some countries are only too happy to take an adulterer and stone her to death. The fact that everybody likes the idea does not make it right. I also believe there is a very sizeable portion of the world’s population who would cheer if they saw President Bush being shot in the back of the head. Would that make it right? We should refrain from acts which are demeaning to human dignity not because they may be unpopular but because they demean those who do them and they demean us all as humans. The USA should not be lowering the bar but raising it.
Regarding Aldebaran, I believe his personal facts are completely and utterly irrelevant and only his arguments should be addressed. generally I find his arguments not worth refuting as I do not believe even a few people share them on this board.
I’m truly surprised at the amount of concern and debate on the “humiliating” treatment the SH has received.
From my days in the military, I was prodded, probed, stuck - you name it. So a tongue depressor in my moth of 5 seconds doesn’t seem like the end of the world. I guess once you sit on the toilet in an open room with up to 12 other guys, your view of humiliation changes.
Aldebaran, you said that there was no need to show Saddam that
“There was no such covering necessary at all. Bringing out the results of blood and DNA testing would have done exactly the same job.”
Well that’s just nonsense, and you have to know it. After his sons were killed, and their pictures shown on TV, many still didn’t believe it. But you’ll believe it if an American doctor signs a DNA report? Sure.
And lastly, can we have a hint of perspective here? This is a guy who had hundreds of thousands of his own people killed, and untold thousands tortured to death. But some are troubled because he had his teeth examined? Your sympathy is so misplaced. Before anyone sheds a tear for SH, how about a moment for all those tortured, raped and killed. And those who would be killed today if he was still in power.
I’m sorry, but I think you need to read my post. And in addition: to read and understand it in the context it is written.
I didn’t mention Hussein in it. I explained the impact of this spectacle on others.
You suffer visibly form the Selective Reading Disease that seems to be common on this board/website.
I never made one single reference to this but many references to the fact that I live in my country of birth. Which isn’t Belgium.
The fact that I’m often in Belgium - and eslwhere- and did a great part of my studies in Belgium doesn’t mean I have my main residence there.
By the way: Why does it matter to so many people here where I live or don’t live?
As for the hijacking that GW Bush had the arrogance to tell the president of a sovereign nation to leave his country and other leaders jumping in to urge that president to do that in order to avoid the USA invading that sovereign nation.
That is an other discussion I wont adress here.
But I don’t know if you recall it that GW Bush said in addition that even if Hussein left Iraq, they would attack and invade anyway. Read: The killing of thousands of innocent people would have happened anyway and the occupation of a sovereign nation would have happened anyway.
Abe, since you say forgot to ask something. Since you say
Do you question me being Arab and Muslim and knowing what goes on in my culture and my religion?
In addition I didn’t say that shaving was done intentionally to come across as it was percieved by those for whom it is an extreme humiliation and insult and in addition an insult of the religion. That would give far too much credit to those involved.
But on the other hand it isn’t impossible some US people involved have knowledge about that seen their interaction with the people who are without any rights and without any legal case brought against them locked up in caves like animals at Guatanamo Bay.
I got into trouble for taking you to task before. Look up at the top of the GD forum at the first sticky–“Because of me, they have a rule!” I won’t do it again. But please, please, open your mind. This is supposed to be a two-way exchange of information. You have a great opportunity to let several hundred Westerners know what the average Arab in (mystery country here) thinks, and you’re driving people away with IMO needless belligerence and defensiveness. Re-read before you post, and discard all the personal stuff. It’ll be better for everyone. This is a forum for Debates. If you want to deliver opinions only, we have another place for that. Be a true scholar. Please.
Do you question me being Arab and Muslim and knowing what goes on in my culture and my religion because it comes across as such.
In addition I didn’t say that this shaving was done intentionally to come across as it was percieved by those for whom it is an extreme humiliation and insult to the dignity of a man and in addition an insult of the religion. That would give far too much credit to those involved.
But on the other hand it isn’t impossible some US people involved have knowledge about that seen their interaction with the people who are - without any rights and without any legal case brought against them - locked up in caves like animals at Guatanamo Bay.
As far as Selective Reading goes, you are entirely correct that I haven’t memorized every detail of your posts. This would be pointless, as they follow a depressingly dull pattern of “US-ers are evil - Bush is evil - I have dyslexia - you are twisting my words” that achieves little.
If you are setting yourself up as The Authority on what all Muslims think, or what all Arabs think, you will have to give some reasons why we should believe you. The credibility of your posts is, to say the least, low, and sinking fast, so don’t expect us to take your word for whatever you claim.
This is especially true when you try stuff like “It was insulting to shave Saddam’s beard” followed by “I wasn’t talking about Saddam.”
If it helps, I suspect you are talking out your ass on most topics, not just Islam or the opinion of the Arabic man in the street.
Shodan, sorry, but your last posts only proves my pont that Selective Reading Disease prevents you from reading what is written.
I don’t waste time on correcting your -deliberately or not - misreadings and interpretations, sorry.
One question though: I f you don’t want to read what I write, why do you make all these efforts to twist what I write in order to mold it into what you like to see?
LOL:D It’s good to see that while most people are losing (at least) their tempers some people keep their sense of humour. Unfettered…
The only thing I have to add here is the fact that a picture of a man looking like SH captive does absolutely nothing to prove that the US of A have the real SH. Nothing. I also have to say that even though I don’t know what former grievances you have with the starter of this thread, none of his posts justify how many of you are talking to him. At least try to be civilized, we owe each other that much.
Well, no, a simple picture indeed wouldn’t do it. But the identification by the other prisoners, including Tariq Aziz; the DNA tests; the fact that the man said (in English) when he emerged from the hole “I am President Saddam Hussein. I wish to enter into negotiations”, the answers he gave to the four members of the Governing Council who confronted him the day after his capture for half-an-hour, the fact this his daughter believes it is him because she’s whining he was drugged when he was caught…
As for the OP, he has fourthreadsin thePit about him, none started by me BTW. I don’t know if that’s a record for a non-Mod, but it’s…impressive. Sorry that a few of us get–uhm–impatient waiting for things to change.
Sorry - my point, evasive as it was, was that it was not necessary to air that footage of SH to “prove to the people of Iraq that we really Got’im”. I’m not quoting anyone here BTW. I didn’t mean to sound condescending either, but looking at my last post I seem to have failed miserably. Being neither a gun-toting American nor a Koran… wielding Arab I lack some of the strong emotions many of you understandably have towards this topic. Personally I aggree with what I think is Aldebaran’s point, although not necessarily his method of output. So to speak.
UselessGit, thanks for that. You have to understand that we Americans had spent twelve years or so listening to this guy scream about us; although when he inveighed against The West in General he presumably meant Iceland too, so don’t feel too left out. As for Alde, that’s pretty much what most of us were trying to tell him–it’s not what you say sometimes as much as HOW you say it, something that you have no problem with. Welcome aboard.
Off to clean mah gun! <mounts horse, falls off, has no health insurance, dies in gutter, corpse is robbed by roving street gang>
Exactly. That is why some members are so out of getting such info and so frustrated because I don’t give it. Maybe they like to post their address on the internet; I don’t have such strange habits. And for those who’s hobby it is to hack around a bit : You won’t be able to trace my real location from the IP that is used. So sorry.
I can even say that I have acces to a lot more “international media” than one languaged average Joe US ever can have. But I don’t have the habit to rely on media.
We all get slammed around the ears by propaganda, or do you believe you do not? But I’m extremely well capable to make the distinction and I suppose you can also.
Not in the least. I don’t have any “disillusion” or “dissappointment” to deal with.
And along with many others in my studyfield (and my region) I predicted this invasion to happen long before those inside the US -except of those who plotted and planned it, and of those who were able to have such insight - could imagine it. = long before the propagandistic misleading machinery of the US government came in action to trick the population.
And I made this topic about this exposing example of US hypocrisy (the last in an endless row) because that was a reasonalbe thing to do when you have some normal perspective on things. I happen to do such now and then on other message boards as well, targetting other countries or persons in other languages including my first one.
The question is why you (you are of course not the only one) find the need to bring what I post here in relation to my person let be to my origin.
If anybody else would make exactly the same topic, such idea’s wouldn’t even come into people’s mind.
In fact, I post on topics like this with my Western half and -background. The Arab one doesn’t even come into it. I can separate the two very well. I’ve learned that since I was in the craddle, so to speak. The more enterntaining it is for me when people start attacking the Arab half that isn’t even present
Well, I always say: everyone is entitled to have a hobby, no?
Salaam. A
Well, if one finds a medical exam humiliating, what about showing a surgery on national television? That happens all the time, just tune into the Discovery Channel, TLC, et al.
