Shroud of Turin forgery

Saw this on the news the other night. Now it’s on the Web:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=5&u=/ap/20050324/ap_on_re_us/shroud_of_turin
Teacher claims that the Shroud of Turin could have been forged by painting an image on glass, placing it over the linen, and letting it bleach in the sun.

Pepper Mill, watching this on TV, immediately responded “They didn’t have pieces of glass that big back then.”

It doesn’t matter if you think this was forged in 33 AD, 1352 AD, or 1852 AD, the statement still holds true. Float Glass manufacturing, that allowed the production of big pieces of plate glass is relatively recent.
I’m surprised that nobody in the news media has brought this up.

Joe Nickell, Skeptical Investigator and regular contributor to The Skeptical Inquirer published a book giving a way to forge the Shroud over 20 years ago. His method doesn’t require big sheets of glass, or anything else not available to a gorger in the 14th century. No news report has brought this up, either.

Link to Cecil’s column for story comparison purposes and such.

-The Cap’n

I searched for his explanation on the size of the glass size:
http://www.shadowshroud.com/faq.htm

IIRC, proponents of the camera obscura explanation mentioned that the head of the figure is separated from the body, that created problems for the pseudo photograph explanation of the shroud, because there is no reason to “develop” the body and then the head separetely as the proponents of the camera obscura theory have to say to make that flaw fit their theory; but this new theory fits nicely with that floating head flaw: obviously several sheets of glass were used at the same time by the forgers. There was no need for a very large flat pane.

One extra size on the last post! :smack:

Even Steven Schafersman from the Skeptic thought that this new explanation was flawed, but is looking that it is stronger than at first glance:
http://www.skeptic.ws/shroud/articles/rogers-ta-response.htm

Gigobuster, that’s an extremely interesting post. It contradicts everything I’ve heard about Medieval (and since) glass production, and now I gotta look into it. Because I’ve never seen large pieces of glass from anytime more recent than the past 150 years or so. Everyone who’s ever lectured or written about it (that I’;ve encountered, at least) says that the classic glass-making method was to basically blow a large balloon of glass, then puncture it and spin. The glass forms a disc shaped. You keep spinning it until it cools. There’s a noticeable thickness difference between hubward and edgeward, but you put all the pieces in place with the prism going the same way, so people don’t notice. (remember all the discussions about whether glass flowed or not, based upon the greater thickness at the bottom?) But this, everyone says, is the reason that windows were made up of lots of small pieces of glass – large ones simply didn’t exist.

I’ve never heard of this cylindrical method before.
As for the glass being transparent enough – that I really find hard to buy. Even up until the beginning of the 19th century glass was full of striae and bubbles, especially in (relatively) large pieces. Faraday and his committee to make better optical glass dates back to almost that time.

Sheets 6’ X 8’ were common? I’ve never heard of a piece of centuries-old glass anywhere approaching that size.

A f’rinstance of what I was raised on:

This is from Pittsburgh Plate Glass’s own site. http://www.glasslinks.com/newsinfo/histppg.htm

Or look at this site (especially the pix):

http://www.londoncrownglass.co.uk/History.html

This Lombatti and St. Andrews stuff is news to me. And I just want to point out that I’ve got a degree in Optical Engineering – we studied the history of glassmaking. This stuff, if true, isn’t widely known.

Hmm. There is this:

http://www.glassonline.com/infoserv/history.html

I;m impressed. Large sheets were possible, but I don’t think I’d call them common (that last article I cite gives a size considerably smaller than 6’ X 8’). I’ll have to amend my criticism from saying it’s an impossible stunt to a ludicrously expensive one.

I don’t see why one would need a single large pane of glass. Couldn’t it have been done in steps, with smaller panes of glass?

Paint the top 1/4 on a pane of glass, put it in the sun over the top 1/4 of the shroud, cover the rest of the shroud so it’s not exposed to the sun. After the 1st 1/4 of the the image is bleached to satisfaction, do the same with the next 1/4 of the shroud, with the next pane of glass that was painted with the next 1/4 of the image. Etc.

Well CalMeacham, that would also fit why this image could not be easy to reproduce then and so it was seen as a miracle, the technique was, as the makers found, a very expensive process for the day. Also, don’t forget that IMO some imperfections and gaps in the image can be explained by smaller sheets put side to side to create the composed image, the distance that the panes (or thin cloth as he also proposes) makes the shadow fuzzy and hides many flaws, like glass gaps, bubbles, imperfections and more importantly: brush strokes.

This technical discussion of the technique is really interesting, but it has been known to have been identified as a forgery at least since 1389, (and was ordered not displayed on the grounds that it was not a true image 30 - 35 years earlier), the wishes of the masses notwithstanding.

tomndebb, sorry I was not clear enough there: I am here talking about a miracle in the sense of “One that excites admiring awe. See Synonyms like wonder.” And it refers to the, until now, mystery of how it was indeed made by human hands.

But given that relic sales were a quite lucrative industry in the Middle Ages, perhaps still a profitable stunt.

Why WOULD the media bring it up?

As Tom notes, Catholic Church authroites called the Shroud “a clever hoax” as far back as the 14th century. More recently, carbon 14 testing has proven pretty conclusively that the Shroud isn’t nearly old enough to have been used for the burial of Jesus 2000 years ago.

So, while knowing exactly HOW the original artist created the effect is sort of interesting to some of us, I can see why most media outlets would read the latest speculation (and so far, that’s ALL it is- interesting speculation) and shrug “So what? We already know the Shroud is a fake. That’s old news.”

probably not, or not as well as it was done. Getting an even exposure would be extremely difficult and you would see hard lines where the panes connected.

Maybe I didn’t explain it well enough, but you wouldn’t need the panes to be connected. You would do one pane at a time, so there’d be no connections between the panes. Spend a week (or whatever) with one pane exposed and the rest of the shroud covered, then expose the next section with the next pane, covering the rest of the shroud, etc…

Cal,

I think part of your problem is that you are confusing the capability of producing large sheets with the ability to do it for large-scale consumption. The former has been demonstrated to exist in the 13th Century. The later, as you have pointed out, is a recent development.

Also, why would the glass have to be perfectly flat, clear, and/or free of bubbles; for this application? The objective was not to see perfectly through it.