Shuttle crew helpless to inspect orbiter?!

I watched NASA’s technical briefing at 3:30 PM EST, and was somewhat disturbed by the comments of shuttle flight director Ron Dittemore. He said that ten days ago they analyzed possible damage to the left wing of the shuttle. However, they decided it wasn’t an issue, and besides, THERE WAS NOTHING THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT!

Not only could the crew not replace any missing tiles, they didn’t even have the capability or training for an EVA beyond the shuttle bay. They couldn’t even go out to inspect the wing!

When asked if they made any effort to photograph the wing from other assets, he stated that they did not, because of the lack of useful info from such attempts in the past, and the fact that even if damage was noted, nothing could be done to correct it.

Now, IANAA (astronaut), but this seems somewhat short-sighted on NASA’s part. Since the shuttle program began, tiles have been lost. Shouldn’t there be some capability of at least inspecting for damage while in orbit?!

Any thoughts?

BTW, I started this thread solely to discuss this specific issue. I’m aware that there are other shuttle threads. (I hope I put this in the correct forum.)

Some info:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/01/shuttle.investigation/index.html

I would think it would be better for them to go on to the ISS, dock there and hang out until a solution and/or extra tiles could be taken up by resupply rocket rather than risk a landing with missing tiles (if that is what happened). It really is too early to speculate about what went wrong.

Apparently, from what I have heard, that wasn’t an option, due to the fact Columbia was in a completely different orbit and didn’t have enough fuel to try a link-up with the station.

Everyone is born into this vale of tears without an adequate safety system. Sooner or later we all grow old, and things go wrong, and nothing can be done to correct it and we die.
Shielding an object against temperatures of 8,000 degrees is complicated enough when done by skilled technicians operating at 1 gravity, and normal atmosphere and pressure. It’s not really surprising that no one has yet invented a kit to reliably do the same job when placed in the hands of a space suited amateur, operating in a vacuum, at 0 g, and with wild temperature fluctuations due to solar heating. And if they can’t fix it, what’s the point of inspecting it, the opportunity to foresee their own doom ?

One point might be to save the crew, and secondarily the science, if the damaged shuttle could stay up until another mission could make a rescue mission.
That is a very big if, as there is often a large gap between missions - the next one wasn’t scheduled until early March - and it is questionable if they could reduce the cycle time. As pointed out, whether they could dock with ISS depends on relative orbits and such. Also, as pointed out on another board, I believe the shuttle has to have a special docking adapter in the cargo bay.

I don’t believe that there has ever been an unplanned EVA. Each and every EVA is planned and practiced in minute detail; Nothing (as much as humanly possible) is left to chance. From my understanding, there is a lot more to it then getting in the suit, strapping on that cool jet-pack, and taking a quick jaunt out in space.

Even if they had fixed the tiles, there would’ve been no guarantee that they would’ve survived reentry. We have no clue as to what caused the crash, but it does sound like it was the tiles missing in one area, and that heated up the remaining fuel… BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!

No more shuttle…

I’m not mocking, but that’s probably what happened…

Hmm… A rescue attempt would’ve been interesting. It could’ve been done via using russian Soyuz rockets. Or, we could’ve actually used the shuttle for something useful. The question is, what do we do with a useless shuttle that cannot go back into Earth’s orbit? Maybe use it as an extension for the ISS??? A launching platform for moon missions? I don’t know…

Besides, they said that they took photos of one mission before, and the photos didn’t help them that much, because like they said, they couldn’t do anything about it. If you get up there, there’s only one way down…

I read today that NASA doesn’t have them train to fix things if they think those things aren’t fixable—or, ickier still, are in all likelihood fatal. I’m not saying that the damage reported was fatal in and of itself; I’m just saying that NASA doesn’t prepare for everything–perhaps for good reason.

Spacecraft by definition are high technology at the max. You just cannot order up a “Shuttle-R-Us” repair truck to go fix something when a problem is detected.

Even if it were possible to perform an EVA to inspect the Shuttle in space, nothing could be done about it to effect any repairs while in space.

I remember back 20 years or so when there was extended coverage of the heat tiles. News stories went into great detail about the tiles, how they functioned, including how each tile to fixed to the Shuttle. They are high technology in their own right.

A rescue mission would have been extremely difficult, especially for this mission. Columbia was in a low inclination orbit, meaning it doesn’t get farther north than Florida. The Russian launch facility is at a higher latitude so a Soyuz couldn’t have gone into the same orbit. Even if it could, a Soyuz only seats 3 so you need 3 launches to get 7 astronauts back. Even if there are 3 ready-to-launch Soyuz capsules (which I very much doubt), a launch facility can only handle about one launch a week. Also the Shuttle doesn’t have a built-in docking port. They do have pressure suits but I don’t think there are enough EVA-capable space suits for all astronauts. Possibly none at all, since EVA wasn’t part of this mission. A rescue using another Shuttle is not impossible, but again the lack of docking port and space suits would have made it very difficult.

I hate to be pessimistic but if a problem was detected during launch, the situation would have been far worse. The media would have spent weeks showing goodbye messages from astronauts and blaming NASA for not having a rescue plan. Then NASA would have attempted a re-entry anyway, since staying in orbit means a certain and slow death.

Excellent comments, all.

Scr4, based on what you’ve said, it sounds as if only another shuttle could have effected a rescue. That being the case, and had NASA known that vital tiles were missing, another shuttle could have been sent up with sufficient EVA suits for the crew to be rescued. After all, we have three other shuttles. The Columbia could have been left in orbit–a repair crew could even be sent up at a later date.

(I realize that the idea of missing tiles is speculative, at this point.)

The larger issue, to me, seems to be that NASA has over-orchestrated every event that occurs in a mission. This is a good strategy when things go as planned, so as to make the most of time in orbit. However, it is a very bad mindset when the unexpected happens. Despite the fact that they had filmed damage to the wing about one minute into takeoff, and that engineers on the ground had analyzed possible damage to the wing, not one change was made to the routine up in space. They made no unplanned EVAs, and they de-orbited on schedule.

However, the analysis on the ground made some huge assumptions: they decided that it was only insulation that had struck the wing, and that no metal hit the wing. I can’t help but think that their conclusions were influenced by the fact that, in their mind, nothing else could be done anyway once the shuttle was in space.

NASA is talking about a multi-year mission to Mars. Do they really think they can plan out every minute of the mission? Is there no provision for crew initiative and working out problems on the fly, as happened during the Apollo 13 mission?

Again, this seems very short-sighted. I think every shuttle mission crew should have the capability of at least inspecting their vehicle. If major damage is found, they could go from there.

I heard on the radio this morning that back in the 80s, they used to carry spare tiles, and performed regular EVAs to examine and replace them, but hadn’t done this recently due to budgetary cuts. I don’t know how true this is.

It takes months, at the minimum, to launch a shuttle. All sorts of orbital mechanics, planning everydetail, and probably most importantly, waiting for the main boosters to be built and delivered. I don’t think they keep a store of those around, so

And astronauts are probably best the equipped people in the world to deal with unforseen problems. For one thing, they are frigging brilliant. Phd’s flow like water in the astronaut corps. They do plan for all sorts of catastrophic occurances, but according to what I hear, they don’t plan on dealing with known 100% fatal situations. (The comparison being, what is your plan if your car flys off a cliff? Thats what I thought.)

Astronauts frequently deal with unforeseen issues; The trick is, whenever possible, they let the ground crews come up with a solution (hundreds of brilliant people), and send up a series of precise instructions. I remember such a situation (minor) occuring during the construction of the space station; The astronauts gave as much information as possible to ground control, who then, with their greater resources, came up with an exact and precise solution, which was read, one tiny step at a time, to the astronauts.

Much, much, much safer that way. I am a mere database admin, but we like to plan every little detail out in advance before any sort of change to the system. Minimizing risk is never stupid, when feasible.

I think that rescue scenarios are so far down the chart as to be very improbable.

First, you’d have to know a problem existed. Then, the problem would need to be fixable on orbit. Then, you retrain the next Commander and Pilot that was scheduled to go up as the rescuers, leaving behind the payload specialists to have empty seats. Then, you launch and pray your accelerated preparations don’t kill the rescue crew. Rescue crew, at the very least, evacuates damaged shuttle crew into vacant seats in the rescue shuttle, or fixes damaged shuttle back to flight status.

That’s a lot of things piled on top of one another. NASA is capable, but there are things that you can’t fix on orbit right now. If we had funded the space stations that NASA wanted much earlier, I bet we could have had some real shuttle service capability in orbit by now.

And thus, likely have the ability to have in place telescopes or other technology to inspect the shuttle and possibly launch a rescue shuttle on short notice.

I understand that in this mission there was nothing the ground could do and as there was no robotic or ‘spacewalk’ gear on board - nothing the crew could do. Will that be the case when shuttle flights resume.

Can a shuttle will be launched till NASA can clearly examine the shuttle and employ a contingency plan to either repair the problem or use the Space Station (ISS) as a lifeboat till some rescue can be effected. Since most future planned missions will be to the ISS - that may be feasible.

I don’t see how another Space Shuttle can be allowed to re-enter the atmosphere over some highly populated areas without clear visual inspection.

It will take funding. More than the half-billion Bush proposed today.

Unfortunately, there will now be incongruous funding funnelled into a tiny danger area. Public paranoia…sigh

On John Glenn’s Mercury flight, NASA thought that there was damage to his heat shield, but they didn’t tell Glenn about that until he returned to Earth. All they did do was alter some of his deorbit proceedures in the hopes that it’d keep him alive. There was worry on Apollo 13 that the heat shield on the capsule was cracked by the explosion, again NASA elected to tell the astronauts nothing until they landed.

The cold reality here is that this will happen again. And again. And again.

The Space Shuttle was designed in the 60’s, built in the 70’s and flew in the 80’s. It is the most complex vehicle ever built in history. (I know others will claim that Doomsday plane [the presidents SIOPs 747; I can’t think of it’s name] is more complex; but that was customized with tons 'o electronics and doesn’t reenter the earth atmosphere). It is at the same time technologically obsolete, but in spite of that has been upgraded over the years to increase it capability (lighter components, faster electronics, better redundancy). It is also capable of fully flying without a pilot. (The Shuttle pilots hate this feature; they want *some[\i] input on the controls so at least the last part of landing is done manually). One could conceivably send up an empty Orbiter and redevouz with the damaged one and xfer of pilots could occur (via the giant “beachball” capsule). But so far as I know, this has never been seriously tested, nor do I recall any Orbiters that could have been furnished in time to effect a rescue.

It is naive to believe that with 10^6 parts you will not have some of them conspire to fail at the wrong time and in some cases this results in a catastrophic failure. In the case of Challenger, O rings and using segmented booster cases (rather than one continuous section) resulted in the infamous blow torch. In Apollo 13, a doubling of the Bus Voltage (from 24 V to 48 V), resulted in a rated 24 volt switch being “welded” together and allowing the cryo heaters to be stuck in the on position to the point that the LOX tank blowing open. In Apollo 1, pressuring the command module to 18 psi (?) with pure 02, and having a tiny spark or flame that ordinarily would be nothing to worry about, became a “bomb” in the caloric sense. One of the Soyuz spacecraft as it undocked had a differential valve stuck open, and the astronauts died from depressurization before reentry. The list goes on and on and on…

The Shuttle is statistically an accident waiting to happen. But remember this:

The Space Shuttle is the most successful launch vehicle in history. When compared to other launch vehicles (Delta, Redstone, Saturn 1, Pegasus, Jupiter, Proton, Ariane, etc.). The fact that it is large, reusable and it is manned makes it much more vulnerable physically and emotionally to disaster then say Soyuz or Apollo (smaller, single use, escape systems, robust heat shields, etc.).

A rescue ship, replacing the tile in an EVA, using an escape capsule, all sound relevant now, but frankly impractical. There is a cost issue associated with each one, along with weight and infrastructure penalties. Remember, in the first Shuttle mission, Crippen and Young had ejection seats. They got rid of them soon after that because of the weight and the confidence that the Space Shuttle was reliable (the fact that it didn’t burn up on reentry was a “proof” that the “theory” was correct).

The fact is this is a very dangerous line of work. And I’ll be ruthlessly cold-- that’s too bad. They knew this; I’ve met several astronauts (Apollo and Space Shuttle) and they know better than anyone else what the risk is and that they could die in this line of work. But one thing I know that perhaps compensates for this outlook-- The are extremely motivated and driven, and that even if they knew right after the launch that they were doomed, they would continue to do their jobs. Why? Because that’s the kind of people they are, they just don’t give up. (Apollo 13 is one of those great stories of endurance; the Ron Howard movie failed to convey technically just how lucky and close to physical and mental exhaustion they were at the end).

Even with the NASA propaganda machine pitching the astronauts as good, clean Americans (which isn’t always the case), up close they were inspirational in a non-manipulative way, which stuck out like a sore thumb in my Washington, DC days. I couldn’t help but be mightily impressed with the few I met.

Frankly, if I were told I was going on the next mission with even with formentioned risk, I’d jump at the chance. It’s worth the risk–even with four grandkids. It’s one of the few things I see nowadays that will inspire kids and adults to dream of something with a little more substance then the fluff of entertainment, or the solipsism of sports. (I suppose you could make the samecase for space exploration, but people who die in the former two don’t necessarily put their lives on the line to the extreme the astronauts/cosmonauts/future ESAnauts/indianauts/chinanaut do.)

Case in point: Back in the 80’s, JPL sent a van up to Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, CA to help us on some of the management aspects of the “Get Away Special” payload which we intended to place on some future Shuttle flight. I didn’t think much about it at the time. But when I rode with the guy to the filling station with that big JPL logo and the NASA insignia, it seemed that any kid there who saw it would came up to us would ask if we were either astronauts or scientists. (mind you, these kids tried desperatly to project that they were “cool” and unaffected by anything). Even with my jaundiced outlook at those insecure kids at that time, it was mighty impressive to see how awed they were.

So in spite of all this hand wringing and hyperbole (headline: Will the Space Program go On?), there’s just too many people out there who love this stuff. In addition, with the rise of the PRC and India space program which will give us some much needed competition, this isn’t going to stop anytime soon.

Rats–: Stupid italics and spelling mistakes! :smack:

Back before the first shuttle launched, I watched some video of a training session in the water tank where an astronaut was using a glorified caulking gun to fill in the gaps where tiles were missing; they had something they thought would allow them to patch a hole and survive re-entry. However, they pointed out that there were no plans to do EVA to check to see if any tiles were missing… At that point, I remember thinking, “Well, it’s only a matter of time before one of these things comes apart on re-entry.” I’m surprised it took this long.

A news report I read this morning pointed out that they decided not to use the patching compound because they figured it would actually do more harm than good to the surrounding tiles.